For any idiots out there who still think birdshot is effective

[Unobtanium]

BigHat; I say, let it run its course. It's the season for all gun Forums to get infected with wanna be tactical Rambos. I think a few of these folk should have their own Benelli Forum section to discuss how they should 'waste' intruders, read comic books in Mom's basement, and play shooter video games after midnight.

 

 

+1, will be glad when people stop going against the proof of experience and pretending to know better than those who have BTDT and trained entire generations of other guys who have BTDT.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Unobtanium

[OhioM4]

...Time for some "Mod magic" to delete this thread to help some refocus on Benelli shotguns.

 

I don't think we need any "Mod magic." We're all big boys and can pick up our toys and go home if the taunting is too much for us. I think the dialog is valuable even with the inflammatory commentary. It certainly makes it more interesting and there is usually some valuable information in every thread. I don't seriously believe we will ever reach a consensus on any proposition that is posted. It is up to each of us to weigh the validity of every argument and make our own decisions.

 

The M4 was my first ever firearm purchase. Most of my friends that currently shoot vigorously tried to dissuade me from purchasing it. They thought it was grossly overpriced and potentially unreliable. It was the posts on this forum and similar ones that helped me make my purchase decision and I could not be happier with my purchase.

 

Being relatively new to firearms I started out shooting #4 Bird Shot as that was what most people have recommended to me as an apartment dweller. When I say most people I am including a good number of folks at gun stores! Some were idiots but others were knowledgeable and helpful. I plan on purchasing some 00 Buck and some rifled slugs to try on my next range outing. I will eventually make my own decision but I would be foolish not to listen to everyone's arguments both for and against.

[Unobtanium]

I don't think we need any "Mod magic." We're all big boys and can pick up our toys and go home if the taunting is too much for us. I think the dialog is valuable even with the inflammatory commentary. It certainly makes it more interesting and there is usually some valuable information in every thread. I don't seriously believe we will ever reach a consensus on any proposition that is posted. It is up to each of us to weigh the validity of every argument and make our own decisions.

 

The M4 was my first ever firearm purchase. Most of my friends that currently shoot vigorously tried to dissuade me from purchasing it. They thought it was grossly overpriced and potentially unreliable. It was the posts on this forum and similar ones that helped me make my purchase decision and I could not be happier with my purchase.

 

Being relatively new to firearms I started out shooting #4 Bird Shot as that was what most people have recommended to me as an apartment dweller. When I say most people I am including a good number of folks at gun stores! Some were idiots but others were knowledgeable and helpful. I plan on purchasing some 00 Buck and some rifled slugs to try on my next range outing. I will eventually make my own decision but I would be foolish not to listen to everyone's arguments both for and against.

 

Consider at least #4 buck. OO is not necessary, and #1 is the generally accepted minimum, but #4 should do well enough for you as long as they aren't clad in leather or something. It may shock you, but OO will only reliably go through one 2x4, and even then it only has enough energy to just dent the 2x4 behind it usually. Buckshot is not the horrid penetrator people make it out to be on hard stuff like wood, etc. Sheetrock, it will go through, but as one poster in our last "birdshot is safer" thread noted, a load of #7-1/2 went through a wall and killed someone a goodly (across room IIRC) distance away from the wall.

 

If you are going to pull the trigger. Know what is beyond your target, and then hit your target with something worth hitting it with!

[OhioM4]

Consider at least #4 buck.

 

I'll add that to the list. I am trying some rifled slugs next. The Bird Shot just makes a mess of confetti out of the target anyway. My M4 was so accurate we ended up bringing the target in closer and blasting smiley faces into it and then carving it up slowly from the bottom up. At least with slugs I can see where my shots are landing. I will probably end up keeping some #4 or #1 Buck for HD.

 

Count me as the first "Idiot" to repent and convert (Low end of the Buck Scale instead of High end of the Bird).

Edited August 6, 2009 by OhioM4

[Trapshooter1]

If you are going to pull the trigger. Know what is beyond your target, and then hit your target with something worth hitting it with!

Ok I agree with you about using buckshot now, but it is kind of hard to say, wait mister intruder! can you stop attacking and move a step to the left so I don't kill my family? You may not have the time or level head during this type of situation to check your surroundings.

[OhioM4]

...wait mister intruder! can you stop attacking and move a step to the left so I don't kill my family? You may not have the time or level head during this type of situation to check your surroundings.

 

OOOOOH! Sounds like a sound argument for rifled slugs and a laser attachment! That argument would probably convince my wife of its necessity.

[agm65ccip]

Hevi-shot has a personal defense round now in T shot. Though they have a dead-coyote load that can be up to 00. Shells are a little pricey but you get more pellets with T than #4 and the theory is that since hevi is denser than lead you really aren't losing anything by going a little smaller. But since it is denser it might penetrate more, but less than a slug I would think...

 

That is if I can believe everything I read on the internet

[LeoAtrox]

Hevi-shot has a personal defense round now in T shot. Though they have a dead-coyote load that can be up to 00. Shells are a little pricey ...

 

When your life depends on it, you won't care how much the cost of ammo is. If you find a good load for your weapon and your situation, buy it. To heck with the cost. Buy enough to pattern/zero, plus several boxes for the magazine and the "hope-I-never-shoot-it" shelf.

 

I'm a slug man myself ... But if I find a good buck load I like--or something comparable--I'll snatch it up for versatility's sake. (And I still think birdshot can be useful in some situations ... Not mine ... But some other situtations.)

[OhioM4]

What if you wake up at 3:00AM to find this guy rummaging around in your living room? Those of us favoring bird shot would be feeling pretty darn smug!

 

[Novaking]

Sure you did. You responded to a factual statement with a personal attack.

 

 

It was a factual question, not a personal attack.

[tucker301]

What if you wake up at 3:00AM to find this guy rummaging around in your living room? Those of us favoring bird shot would be feeling pretty darn smug!

 

 

 

Be careful.

I hear he's got a darned good lawyer.

[Unobtanium]

Be careful.

I hear he's got a darned good lawyer.

 

Won't matter. 1 story in court is always better than two

[Duggan]

I don't think I started anything.

 

So, is #9 birdshot a part of your home defense plan? Because by your own statements, you felt insulted when I made fun of birdshot HD users ...

 

Do tell.

 

ETA - I really cannot beleive all the stupidity in this thread.

 

Birdshot is GROSSLY ineffective at killing larger animals, and SERIOUSLY lacks stopping power.

If you shoot someone in HD, you are shooting to eliminate the threat, which basically means shoot to kill.

As such, birdshot is UNACCEPTABLE as a HD round. #1 buck is the absolute minimum I would ever go.

 

If you disagree, you are doing it wrong, and you are putting yourself and everyone else at risk due to your foolishness.

 

This is not "tactical wannabe space shuttle door gunner commando Duggan" or whatever ******** you want to call me saying it, it is hundreds of thousands of real world accounts across the globe.

 

But hey, what do I know, maybe the best way to kill a bear is with a 20 gauge loaded with #9 shot and a cyl choke, because there is no way you could possibly ever aim under stress.

 

I wonder why I bother sometimes.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Duggan

[Novaking]

So, is #9 birdshot a part of your home defense plan? Because by your own statements, you felt insulted when I made fun of birdshot HD users ...

 

Do tell.

 

 

Who said they use #9 shot? Who said I was insulted about people using birdshot? I do think its very wrong to have a picture of a baby looking like its dead in that carseat. I think you know a lot about guns and ammo. I think you need to grow up a bit.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Novaking

[shotgunNoob]

While birdshot (in any form) would not be my first choice as a self-defense load, to play devils advocate, I have heard of perps continuing their onslaught after receiving rounds such as 00 Buck and/or .45 ACP.

 

I mean, if say, an individual can "walk away" or survive a brutal attack from a 2000+ lb. Great White shark (yes, a nod to "shark week"), then Im betting there are those among us who could fair just as well against even the mighty 12 ga. loaded w/ 00 Buck or the .45 ACP handgun (certainly anything less as well)...particularly if loaded up on the latest street drug. Doesnt mean they may not die eventually, but they may not be stopped "dead" in their tracks either.

 

Regardless, I prefer Federal LE Low Recoil 00 Buck (9 pellet) for HD...as of now. If I went with something else, it would probably be #1 or #4 Buckshot. But h*ll, Ive heard of peeps being "put out of commission" with nothing more than a .22. You just never know.

Edited August 7, 2009 by shotgunNoob

[Unobtanium]

While birdshot (in any form) would not be my first choice as a self-defense load, to play devils advocate, I have heard of perps continuing their onslaught after receiving rounds such as 00 Buck and/or .45 ACP.

 

I mean, if say, an individual can "walk away" or survive a brutal attack from a 2000+ lb. Great White shark (yes, a nod to "shark week"), then Im betting there are those among us who could fair just as well against even the mighty 12 ga. loaded w/ 00 Buck or the .45 ACP handgun (certainly anything less as well)...particularly if loaded up on the latest street drug. Doesnt mean they may not die eventually, but they may not be stopped "dead" in their tracks either.

 

Regardless, I prefer Federal LE Low Recoil 00 Buck (9 pellet) for HD...as of now. If I went with something else, it would probably be #1 or #4 Buckshot. But h*ll, Ive heard of peeps being "put out of commission" with nothing more than a .22. You just never know.

 

So why not err on the side of caution and use as much gun as you can comfortably handle loaded with a projectile(s) that penetrate 12-18" reliably in gel/OIS autopsies? (while people usually arent 18" thick, the skin on the back is = to about 4" of gel, and clothing is equal to another couple. This is why rounds that penetrate a lot in gel are usually found inside perp's clothings at OIS scenes.)

[shotgunNoob]

Well...Im sure I could name a few reasons as many factors are at play here besides "stopping power"; factors such as dwelling and whether or not there are children within the household, for instance. However, I wont bother as I essentially agree with you.

Edited August 7, 2009 by shotgunNoob

[Trapshooter1]

Who said they use #9 shot? Who said I was insulted about people using birdshot? I do think its very wrong to have a picture of a baby looking like its dead in that carseat. I think you know a lot about guns and ammo. I think you need to grow up a bit.

Duggan didn't say, he asked. Duggan is just a funny guy, and guess what, I don't think thats a real baby

 

Uno, I am going to play devil's advocate to. If buckshot has so much penetration, I would think it would penetrate through a door with killing power left, and certainly a hollow door. When you have 9 or more 00 pellets with relatively open chokes it puts a high risk to your family. And you would probably shoot until the guy falls good and dead, you would probably be putting 27 scattered pellets all over the place While I use #1 buck now, I just want to see how you respond. The point of you using buckshot, is to stop the person trying to cause harm to you and your family. If it can penetrate doors with Killing power and harms your family just like the intruder, doesn't that defeat the purpose?

[Unobtanium]

Duggan didn't say, he asked. Duggan is just a funny guy, and guess what, I don't think thats a real baby

 

Uno, I am going to play devil's advocate to. If buckshot has so much penetration, I would think it would penetrate through a door with killing power left, and certainly a hollow door. When you have 9 or more 00 pellets with relatively open chokes it puts a high risk to your family. And you would probably shoot until the guy falls good and dead, you would probably be putting 27 scattered pellets all over the place While I use #1 buck now, I just want to see how you respond. The point of you using buckshot, is to stop the person trying to cause harm to you and your family. If it can penetrate doors with Killing power and harms your family just like the intruder, doesn't that defeat the purpose?

 

Birdshot can certainly kill and maim as well, but as posted in the original article--it takes longer/isn't as efficient. Not really important factors when it's that kid of yours, but VERY important to consider when it's that 240# drunk guy who used to play college ball and who has it in his head that he's going to be killing someone that night.

 

Also, I would challenge you to do something: see how often projectiles have penetrated a perp and then killed the wrong person, or how often they have penetrated walls WHILE BEING FIRED at a home-invader, and killing someone. Yes we all hear about "accidents", but I am talking about a shooting, during a home invasion, that resulted in the death of someone unintentionally due to it penetrating more than it should have.

 

I would wager that those incidences, while certainly possible, are very very rare. Certainly more rare than people being killed because they used too little gun.

 

Noone ever said Buckshot--or any firearm/projectile combo was safe. It's not meant to be target-friendly. Use intelligently, fire from angles where you won't hit family members. My roommate is in no danger and I am running 124gr+P Ranger T in 9mm currently. Why is he in no danger? Because unless he is 8 feet tall, I am not going to hit him shooting from the kneeling/prone position from my bed. I am not going to go kicking through my house hunting someone. I don't have **** in my house worth risking even a bloody nose for handly (college appartment) that isn't in my room with me. Ergo, I am not taking action unless my room door is kicked in, or my roommate's door is kicked in. At which point critical thinking, aiming, and all that come into play.

 

My point is this. A gun is a tool. It is a lethal tool. Use your brain and it will work for you, just go spraying like an idiot and it will work against you.

 

What if you treated your car like these birdshot fanatics seem to think shotguns should be treated? It would be like driving without attempting to steer. Apparently they want a load that they can go blasting around their house with without thinking about who is behind what door. If you drove like they seem to advocate shooting, you would need a car made of nerf to be safe.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Unobtanium

[Trapshooter1]

Birdshot can certainly kill and maim as well, but as posted in the original article--it takes longer/isn't as efficient. Not really important factors when it's that kid of yours, but VERY important to consider when it's that 240# drunk guy who used to play college ball and who has it in his head that he's going to be killing someone that night.

 

Also, I would challenge you to do something: see how often projectiles have penetrated a perp and then killed the wrong person, or how often they have penetrated walls WHILE BEING FIRED at a home-invader, and killing someone. Yes we all hear about "accidents", but I am talking about a shooting, during a home invasion, that resulted in the death of someone unintentionally due to it penetrating more than it should have.

 

I would wager that those incidences, while certainly possible, are very very rare. Certainly more rare than people being killed because they used too little gun.

 

Noone ever said Buckshot--or any firearm/projectile combo was safe. It's not meant to be target-friendly. Use intelligently, fire from angles where you won't hit family members. My roommate is in no danger and I am running 124gr+P Ranger T in 9mm currently. Why is he in no danger? Because unless he is 8 feet tall, I am not going to hit him shooting from the kneeling/prone position from my bed. I am not going to go kicking through my house hunting someone. I don't have **** in my house worth risking even a bloody nose for handly (college appartment) that isn't in my room with me. Ergo, I am not taking action unless my room door is kicked in, or my roommate's door is kicked in. At which point critical thinking, aiming, and all that come into play.

 

My point is this. A gun is a tool. It is a lethal tool. Use your brain and it will work for you, just go spraying like an idiot and it will work against you.

 

What if you treated your car like these birdshot fanatics seem to think shotguns should be treated? It would be like driving without attempting to steer. Apparently they want a load that they can go blasting around their house with without thinking about who is behind what door. If you drove like they seem to advocate shooting, you would need a car made of nerf to be safe.

Good argument, but, it would be almost impossible to find someone specifically killed from buckshot, through a door, and accidentally because it is narrowing it down pretty far. Some people used pistols, rifles for HD, some people live by themselves, some people have hardwood solid doors, some people use birdshot, slugs. I am pretty sure you put a bigger bolt release on your M4 (I know at least Duggan did) and this is because in the case you have to use it for its intended purpose, you don't think as strait. It will be hard to slow down and think about your surroundings when they guy attacking you comes around the corner and is 10- yards and closing fast. Factors that make this worse is low light, panic. I aree with what you said, shoot to kill. If you shoot a guy in the foot, or just wound him he still has the ability to kill you and your life is way to important to risk.

[Trapshooter1]

check this out:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm

#8 bird shot doesn't even go through to sheets of dry wall, but the wad does. I doubt #6 would penetrate either, if it did it wouldn't have lethal force. 00 went through 2 walls worth of drywall. I wish they tested smaller buckshot loads and bigger bird shot. I wish I had anti ricochet bullet proof walls and doors.

[Unobtanium]

check this out:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm

#8 bird shot doesn't even go through to sheets of dry wall, but the wad does. I doubt #6 would penetrate either, if it did it wouldn't have lethal force. 00 went through 2 walls worth of drywall. I wish they tested smaller buckshot loads and bigger bird shot. I wish I had anti ricochet bullet proof walls and doors.

 

True, he is yet another proponent of buckshot use though. Everyone is a proponent of buckshot out in the real-world and not in their errorted "What about beind door #1" world is. Guy was a cop for years.

[OhioM4]

Buck shot, bird shot, slugs, pistol rounds, doors, and walls...the mind wobbles! Regardless of what I put in my gun, I'm seriously thinking about Kevlar wallpaper at this point.

[Unobtanium]

Buck shot, bird shot, slugs, pistol rounds, doors, and walls...the mind wobbles! Regardless of what I put in my gun, I'm seriously thinking about Kevlar wallpaper at this point.

 

Do you have family, is this the main issue at hand? If so, why don't you all have a plan in case of a B&E to make sure you know where everyone is. Spend some time thinking about your floor-plan.

[shotgunNoob]

Also, I would challenge you to do something: see how often projectiles have penetrated a perp and then killed the wrong person, or how often they have penetrated walls WHILE BEING FIRED at a home-invader, and killing someone. Yes we all hear about "accidents", but I am talking about a shooting, during a home invasion, that resulted in the death of someone unintentionally due to it penetrating more than it should have.

 

I would wager that those incidences, while certainly possible, are very very rare. Certainly more rare than people being killed because they used too little gun.

 

 

Even though I personally prefer 00 Buckshot (Low Recoil) to anything else, I once again will play Devils advocate on this one.

 

Thing is, even though such overpenetration cases may be rare as you stated, the legal liabilities (for many) are just too real and scary; thus, this may outweigh the benefits of using buckshot for HD...particularly "full house" 00 buck.