Unobtanium Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0506/a_warrior_sacrifice.html# Read the whole story. Shotgun blast to the forehead. Birdshot. Cop killed the assailant for his troubles. Assailant was a total bullet-sponge and soaked up multiple rounds of 230gr GDHP's to the torso. Border's body was twisting with his feet still in the air when the blast hit him in the forehead like a baseball bat, snapping him backward onto the ground. Bursting lights inside his head accentuated the gruesome sensation that his forehead had just been ripped away. He forced himself up onto all fours and grabbed his forehead, fully expecting to touch exposed brain. It was a bloody mess but there was no gaping hole. He looked at Debbie, noting that she appeared unharmed. "Is my head all there?" he asked. She nodded. "I think you're OK." Borders was alert, breathing without difficulty and able to feel his extremities. He knew he could still fight, but assumed that some of the pellets had penetrated his skull, inflicting a mortal wound. There was only one thing to do—stop Mettinger before he killed his wife. Only then would his death mean something. ETA quote about stupid woman: Meanwhile, Debbie, now shocked out of her stubbornness by the violence around her, crawled to a spot near the patrol car's right rear fender and stayed there. Now free from worry about the woman's well-being, Borders was able to focus completely on stopping his adversary. Also ETA badass tactics and mad skill on cop's part: Borders had been taught to skip shots off the pavement in situations like this one, and he had practiced the technique often enough to be confident with it. Mettinger's side was partially exposed, so Borders aimed at a spot on the driveway a few feet in front of it and squeezed off three rounds. All three found their mark, opening up deep red holes in Mettinger's side. ________________________________________________ *After Action Report*It is also important to note that Borders is a person who is never content with just being good enough. Rather than settle for the firearms training provided by his department, as good as it was, he trained on his own as often as possible. In addition, he practiced not only his basic shooting skills, but advanced skills as well, like the ricochet shots that served him so well in this case. ETA: Quote proving that even the BG knows birdshot is worthless on people Subsequent investigation revealed why Mettinger had been so intent on reaching the back of the garage. A full box of 12-gauge 00 buckshot was found on a shelf there. Article goes on to say that the birdshot was #4, it did enter his brain (2 pellets) and had long-term effect. However, long-term effect didn't save Mettinger, and it won't save you. Edited July 31, 2009 by Unobtanium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 while it wouldnt be my first choice notice: "he had been hit with #4 shot, not buckshot and that only four pellets had struck him" "two of the shotgun pellets had actually penetrated into Borders' brain two fractured vertebrae in his neck and back, and an additional brain injury from the whiplash effect of the blow to his head and subsequent impact with the ground." Thats a lot of injury for only 4 pellets. Standard pellet count lists 134 pellets per ounce for #4. So I'm thinking if Mettinger had hit Borders with anything more than the extreme edge of his pattern, it would have been lights out for permanent for Borders. So while I wouldn't go so far as to say it is effective I definitely would not say it was ineffective... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody6.0 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Well I have done my own tests and there is no way in **** you will see my SG loaded with birdshot awaiting HD use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unobtanium Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 while it wouldnt be my first choice notice: "he had been hit with #4 shot, not buckshot and that only four pellets had struck him" "two of the shotgun pellets had actually penetrated into Borders' brain two fractured vertebrae in his neck and back, and an additional brain injury from the whiplash effect of the blow to his head and subsequent impact with the ground." Thats a lot of injury for only 4 pellets. Standard pellet count lists 134 pellets per ounce for #4. So I'm thinking if Mettinger had hit Borders with anything more than the extreme edge of his pattern, it would have been lights out for permanent for Borders. So while I wouldn't go so far as to say it is effective I definitely would not say it was ineffective... I question whether or not it was just 4 pellets. 4 pellets may have been all that were IN him, but that doesn't jive with common sense. 4-pellets felt like a baseball bat? Knocked his head back like that? From THAT short of a distance? (view the diagrams) I don't know. I know what the article said, but I am a skeptic. Either way, had it been buckshot he would be dead. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapshooter1 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Well I have done my own tests and there is no way in **** you will see my SG loaded with birdshot awaiting HD use. I shot a piece of 1" hickory with #4 high velocity turkey load and it didn't penetrate, but hickory is a very strong wood, regardless, If he got hit with 4 pellets and 2 penetrated his skull, if 20 hit then 10 pellets would be in his brain. A good point blank shot would kill him, I used to just leave my shotguns loaded with high brass #6, and am convinced a good shot would disable a person, however with my testing I have decided to leave some old 00 buck I found in my ammo box in the gun. I still leave an IM choke in that I normally use. I don't know if this is a good choke but I really don't care about HD that much, I just know for shore It will put a man down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapshooter1 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I question whether or not it was just 4 pellets. 4 pellets may have been all that were IN him, but that doesn't jive with common sense. 4-pellets felt like a baseball bat? Knocked his head back like that? From THAT short of a distance? (view the diagrams) I don't know. I know what the article said, but I am a skeptic. Either way, had it been buckshot he would be dead. Period. Think about it, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It couldn't hit him with more than the kick of a shell with only 4 birdshot pellets, and the tiny amount of powder to match a full loads fps. That sounds like the weight and powder of a rimfire which I know from experience has no felt recoil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I question whether or not it was just 4 pellets. 4 pellets may have been all that were IN him, but that doesn't jive with common sense. 4-pellets felt like a baseball bat? Knocked his head back like that? From THAT short of a distance? (view the diagrams) I don't know. I know what the article said, but I am a skeptic. Either way, had it been buckshot he would be dead. Period. Yeah I did think about only 4 pellets causing that much damage but seeing as I don't have any evidence that the article was wrong I just went with it. An interesting part is that if it really was only 4 from the very edge of the pattern he might have missed Borders completely with 00 and only 9 or so pellets... Buckshot is definitely better than birdshot but if it was all I had I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duggan Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 If you use bird shot for home defense, you are a moron and we have nothing else to talk about. It's really that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowShooter Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 If you use bird shot for home defense, you are a moron and we have nothing else to talk about. It's really that simple. LOL... Agreed 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhioM4 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 If the bad guy doesn't stop all the pellets...there will be less spackling required in the hallway with 00! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Shotgun Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Wow this is insane. After reading the article I'm trying to think again if I would really wanna become a cop.... To take a shotgun blast for a lady I dont even know....all in the name of "to serve and to protect" wow.... the damage from even birdshot lasts a lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renault Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 If you use bird shot for home defense, you are a moron and we have nothing else to talk about. It's really that simple. what if you're defending against enraged birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duggan Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 what if you're defending against enraged birds? You need 3 inch slugs then ... armored ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeoAtrox Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 If you use bird shot for home defense, you are a moron and we have nothing else to talk about. It's really that simple. That's rather course Duggan. Sometimes birdshot is all you can safely use. Buckshot tends to go through walls; so if you live in an apartment, there's a good chance you could strike your neighbors if you use buck. In these cases, you have to weigh defensive capability versus the liklihood of collateral injury. There are home defense experts that would recommend large birdshot for these types of situations. Your avarage home invader is not determined enough to stand and fight through a birdshot wound (or even a guy shooting any type of shot at him). Birdshot wouldn't be my first choice, but if I was single and living in an apartment, I might just do #4 birdshot out of a Taurus Judge ... Well, maybe 3 birdshot loads, and 2 .45 Colt rounds out of a Judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhioM4 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) what if you're defending against enraged birds? Or hunting buddies with really bad aim. Didn't Dick Cheney shoot a friend in the face with bird shot? It was a 28ga and I think the bird shot in that incident was really small (#9 maaybe) as the victim was reported as having 200 pieces of shot in him. I keep #4 in mine as I do, in fact, live in an apartment and am concerned about penetration. God knows noise comes through the walls and ceilings like water. Come to think of it, water comes through the walls and ceilings like water too. I've been flooded by the upstairs tenant more than once. Maybe a drain in a strategic place in the shape of a 12ga slug would help. I work in Cleveland near the clinic and the face transplant story was big news around here. I saw copies of the x-ray and I can attest to the fact that #4 is very efficient at removing very large amounts of bone. You could very clearly see the shot pattern in the portion of the skull that remained. It looked like a good 30% of the skull was shot away. I honestly have no idea how someone could have possibly survived that. Edited August 3, 2009 by OhioM4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapshooter1 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 That's rather course Duggan. Sometimes birdshot is all you can safely use. Buckshot tends to go through walls; so if you live in an apartment, there's a good chance you could strike your neighbors if you use buck. In these cases, you have to weigh defensive capability versus the liklihood of collateral injury. There are home defense experts that would recommend large birdshot for these types of situations. Your avarage home invader is not determined enough to stand and fight through a birdshot wound (or even a guy shooting any type of shot at him). Birdshot wouldn't be my first choice, but if I was single and living in an apartment, I might just do #4 birdshot out of a Taurus Judge ... Well, maybe 3 birdshot loads, and 2 .45 Colt rounds out of a Judge. Birdshot will penetrate hollow doors (Which mine are not) If you open the hollow interior doors up, it is a hollow box of 1/4" wood filled with cardboard supports. It wont be enough energy to kill left. I have 1.5" hardwood interior doors, which #1 buck should not penetrate with lethal force. I am not sure about drywall. I wouldn't mind "striking" my neighbors anyways I say you should test a variety of loads with drywall and doors and find the biggest safe load possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unobtanium Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Birdshot will penetrate hollow doors (Which mine are not) If you open the hollow interior doors up, it is a hollow box of 1/4" wood filled with cardboard supports. It wont be enough energy to kill left. I have 1.5" hardwood interior doors, which #1 buck should not penetrate with lethal force. I am not sure about drywall. I wouldn't mind "striking" my neighbors anyways I say you should test a variety of loads with drywall and doors and find the biggest safe load possible. Who wants to shoot someone with a safe load? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhioM4 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Who wants to shoot someone with a safe load? Try this website...they have everything from confetti rounds to hollow exploding slugs. Just make sure you don't get them mixed up. Remember Oddball in Kelly's Heroes when he shot the german tank with a "paint" round accidentally? I favor the flamethrower round! http://www.firequest.com/catalog/showcase_item_4.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapshooter1 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Who wants to shoot someone with a safe load? I don't think 1 buck is a safe load to be shot with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyson129 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Know your surroundings well and dont shoot anywhere near their directions, keep in mind that a bullet can ricochet in odd directions. Ive seen the results of a .40 cal that went off into a closet of a house, it bounced all around the closet before going down into the floor, we went down stairs and it dragged down one wall before exiting. You never know what is going to happen so be careful! Even a veteran can make a stupid mistake, you see it in the news all the time with cops shooting themselves while holstering the gun- no thanks to the Glock and its "trigger safety". Didnt you see that women's face after bird shot? That was so nasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novaking Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 You two are such GI Joes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhioM4 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 (edited) Lethal - No Effective - Yes The psychological effect on the officer of getting hit by only four pellets was significant and, for some people, may have been sufficient to "stop" the fight. On the flip side, remember too that in the original post that the bad guy was shot multiple times in the torso with a 45! The 45 is supposed to be one of the top Man Stoppers available. Going the other extreme, back in 2001 here in Cleveland a 13 year old boy was shot and killed by a single BB fired from a BB gun. I myself accidentally killed a goose I was trying to scare with a Daisy spring loaded BB gun. I swear you could watch the BB in flight the muzzle velocity was so low. It appears that chance still plays an active roll. Edited August 4, 2009 by OhioM4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Slugo Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 For any idiots out there who still think that life is just like a video game with a shotgun ..... http://www.theonion.com/content/video/hot_new_video_game_consists?utm_source=videoembed ♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trapshooter1 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 For any idiots out there who still think that life is just like a video game with a shotgun ..... http://www.theonion.com/content/video/hot_new_video_game_consists?utm_source=videoembed ♠ People that play games like that where you simply blow people's heads off non stop, really must have something wrong in there head. Did you here that lady at the end of that video? "A new cure for crying children...smothering." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duggan Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 People that play games like that where you simply blow people's heads off non stop, really must have something wrong in there head. Did you here that lady at the end of that video? "A new cure for crying children...smothering." Imagine that, humor and satire from The Onion ... whoever would have thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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