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ATF Response to Legality of Full Length Mag Tube on Benelli M4


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Yes...but is the follower stamped "Made in USA"? :confused:

 

I think that's why the receipt for the parts is important. Not even sure Kip's tube is stamped US. I have one on my M4 and thought he said it is but not at home to check. Remember who you are dealing with. You don't want to successfully defend the charge, you want no charge to be filed. You have a receipt that reflects a key piece is US that's best. We don't know if US gas pistons will ever be made, let alone "stamped" US but the proof of US gas pistons might be enough.

I'd hope that due diligence to make the effort to comply with existing laws would convey to those involved that not only am I a law abiding citizen, but one that also went to great lengths to insure that is was.

 

So let me ask another ?. If I was to buy a collapsible stock in the aftermarket would I need to swap out another part, or would the fact that some were imported with the stock that I would be okay? I'm thinking i"d need another part if my serial number reveals to came with a conventional stock.

Edited by BigHat
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I think that's why the receipt for the parts is important... You have a receipt that reflects a key piece is US that's best. We don't know if US gas pistons will ever be made, let alone "stamped" US but the proof of US gas pistons might be enough.

 

A receipt just shows you purchased a part from a US supplier. It does not really verify the origin of the part. Unless the part is serialized there is no way to verify the part on your gun is the same as the one referenced on the receipt.

 

I also noticed the BATF employees appear to be reluctant to attach their name or title to any correspondence. There does not appear to be a name or signature on any of the letters posted. Even if you present the letter to an agent they still have "plausible deniabiltiy" on their side. The fact that the parts count has varied from 11 to 13 causes me some concern. If they check back with HQ and get a different parts count than is referenced in your letter what takes precedence?

 

It also begs the question of why there are Benelli +2 extensions in the US now and the discontinuation of the collapsible stocks. Was the +2 extension legal in the past. How would they know when it was purchase and for what gun? Will they determine the parts count based on your serial number and the rules in effect on the date of import?

 

We're talking about the ATF, I think they like the rules to be vague and confusing...it makes compliance impossible and they can impound your gun and decide if it's illegal later; "Sorry our mistake, it's actually comprised of (15,17,19, LH and RH foregrips, or whatever puts you just out of compliance on that particular day) number of parts.

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Does anyone have the mailing address for the ATF Firearms Technology Branch in West Virginia? I have a feeling their mail volume is going to experience a spike

 

Hookster

 

Perhaps, but if you want to send your letter to the same place as MeanGreen, use this address

 

Bureau Of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Office of Public and Governmental Affairs

Mail Stop 5S-144

99 New York Avenue, NE.

Washington, DC 20226

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Just found it:

 

 

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, West Virginia 25401-9431

 

Hookster

Hookerster and ShadowShooter, the West Viriginia address on Needy Way is the address for the Firearms Technology Branch, which is the correct one to send your request to. You may even want to call your local ATF office so that they can give you the phone number to this branch.

 

Actually, I think when they gave me the phone number for the Technology Branch, they gave me the direct number to the Chief that responded to my letter.

 

I didn't put the actual address in my letters because I wasn't sure if I should. I don't think its a secret or anything. But if you call your local ATF office, they'll give you the actual address which Hookster has. But I had the zip code as 25405 not 25401. Any way call your local ATF office and get the info from them for certain.

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Hookerster and ShadowShooter, the West Viriginia address on Needy Way is the address for the Firearms Technology Branch, which is the correct one to send your request to. You may even want to call your local ATF office so that they can give you the phone number to this branch.

 

Actually, I think when they gave me the phone number for the Technology Branch, they gave me the direct number to the Chief that responded to my letter.

 

I didn't put the actual address in my letters because I wasn't sure if I should. I don't think its a secret or anything. But if you call your local ATF office, they'll give you the actual address which Hookster has. But I had the zip code as 25405 not 25401. Any way call your local ATF office and get the info from them for certain.

 

Interesting.. They told me to send it to the DC address which has the same zip as the letter you posted.

 

http://www.atf.gov/contact/index.htm

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When I get around to writing my letter, I think I will include a copy of the older letter, posted in another thread, that states there are only 11 imported parts and ask for confirmation. They don't appear to have any ready reference or database that calculates the part count. It looks like they are counting for each inquiry. If you can get them to confirm there are only 11 parts, just changing the magazine tube should be sufficient for compliance.

 

If enough of us get confirmation of 11 parts there may be some safety in numbers should anyone's gun get impounded by an over zealous ATF Agent. They may repudiate one letter as having incorrect info but it would be hard to argue multiple statements to a larger population. I suggest we attempt to guide them into a consistent response, whatever that may be.

 

Does somebody want to take a shot at drafting and posting a standard form letter we could all use? ATF may appreciate a consistent format as they could send out a form letter reply.

Edited by OhioM4
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I just sent my letter to both addresses with ATF Agent Sterling Nixon's letter which notes the count at 11 attached. We will see which one gets here first and if they have a different part count...

 

Makes one wonder if the BATF gives inconsistent answers like the IRS routinely does.

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when was the last time anyone heard of a 922 arrest and or prosecution?...how would an overzealous ATF agent LEGALLY inspect your firearm unless they had a warrant? Unless you live in NYC (where the NYPD has and/is currently inspecting firearm's for NYC compliance) and own a registered Benelli M4 isn't this like talking about all the money you could've made if you got long the market 6 months ago? ;)

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when was the last time anyone heard of a 922 arrest and or prosecution?...how would an overzealous ATF agent LEGALLY inspect your firearm unless they had a warrant? Unless you live in NYC (where the NYPD has and/is currently inspecting firearm's for NYC compliance) and own a registered Benelli M4 isn't this like talking about all the money you could've made if you got long the market 6 months ago? ;)

 

Reading other posts on other forums I get the impression the risk is not prosecution but the impounding of the firearm in question. There were reports of people being challenged at gun shows and firing ranges. One of the threads in this forum described a gun in for repairs and the gunsmith being audited for compliance by ATF. I think the risk of procsecution is miniscule for a 922 violation by itself. It would probably be added to a laundry list of charges associated with a more serious offence. I would be worried about compliance if I had to use my gun in self defense. Probably not in the criminal trial but I'm sure the lawyers in any civil cases would love to claim you illegally modified your weapon.

 

An once of prevention is worth a pound of cure! What does a postage stamp cost?

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I'm glad to finally see this issue addressed "in force". I get sick of the same old answer of "that's just the way it is, accept it". BS! WE the people can make this happen if enough of us try.

 

I'm for the "11 parts" letter. I'll be sending in my own letter to the ATF this coming week.

 

I talked to customer support at Benelliusa.com twice on this matter and both times I was told that the M4 has to be imported with the magazine limiter, but once it's in the US, then as long as you add a "Made In the USA" extension or FL tube you were ok. Just don't add a Benelli FL tube or extension.

 

I for one, would like to see Benelliusa put out a document on this matter. If CS is telling everyone this, then they should be backing it up with documentation. IMO

 

Now, let's all flood the ATF with letters about our "11 imported parts M4's". :)

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Interesting.. They told me to send it to the DC address which has the same zip as the letter you posted.

 

http://www.atf.gov/contact/index.htm

When I first called my local ATF office, the investigator that didn't know much about 922r compliance, transfered me on the phone to the Firearms Technology Branch where I spoke with someone "official". And that was the person that told me to send the letter to the West Virginia address. I think the DC address on the letter head may just ATF generic letter head. But I guess go with whatever they told you.

 

Also in regards to, 'should we comply to 11 or 13 parts' or 'who cares about 922 r compliance they never convict anyone'. I wrote this letter to the ATF so that my conscience is clear when I put on my full length mag tube. I have two little boys and a wife and the last thing I want to do is come anywhere within a 1000 miles of commiting a felony for two extra rounds. That being said I absolutely think we should still fight against ridiculous gun restrictions, like the 1968 law only allowing the importation of "sporting arms". But at the same time following the law as it is written currently. That's just my 2 cents.

Edited by MeanGreen
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I absolutely think we should still fight against ridiculous gun restrictions

I think we should fight against every gun restriction, we have the right to bear any and all types of arms, including full auto and +5 capacity imported guns. Fighting with guns will be the last resort, but it might be necessary if further drastic gun laws be set. The government is "weaning" us off of guns. This means they outlaw more and more types of guns slowly, until we are left with none. Given time, they will pass more gun restrictions until we are left with none. I am not saying it will be this generation, but there is a good chance it will eventually happen given time and the right situation. The founding fathers made the 2nd amendment so we the people can defend ourselves from excessive government power.

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When I first called my local ATF office, the investigator that didn't know much about 922r compliance, transfered me on the phone to the Firearms Technology Branch where I spoke with someone "official". And that was the person that told me to send the letter to the West Virginia address. I think the DC address on the letter head may just ATF generic letter head. But I guess go with whatever they told you.

 

Also in regards to, 'should we comply to 11 or 13 parts' or 'who cares about 922 r compliance they never convict anyone'. I just did this so that my conscience is clear when I put on my full length mag tube. I have two little boys and a wife and the last thing I want to do is come anywhere within a 1000 miles of commiting a felony for two extra rounds. That being said I absolutely think we should still fight against ridiculous gun restrictions, like the 1968 law only allowing the importation of "sporting arms". But at the same time following the law as it is written currently. That's just my 2 cents.

 

 

Yup, I talked to a guy in the West Virginia branch and he said they use either address on their letterhead. He said there was no rhyme or reason, just sometimes they use the DC address and sometimes they use the West Virginia address. In any event, I sent a letter to the West Virginia branch as well.

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Hi,

This address has worked well for me in the past for technical issues:

 

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

Firearms Technology Branch

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, WV 25401

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The part I find interesting about the newest letter is the part I underlined. If I read that correctly, then it does you NO good to purchase the "Field Stock" and put it on trying to eliminate one part (the pistol grip) because the ATF (in the letter) considers that either the Field Stock or the Fixed w/ PG stock the same?

 

M4ATF-03t001-1.jpg

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"If I read that correctly, then it does you NO good to purchase the "Field Stock" and put it on trying to eliminate one part (the pistol grip) because the ATF (in the letter) considers that either the Field Stock or the Fixed w/ PG stock the same?"

 

According to the "newest letter," that would be correct. The fixed pistol grip buttstock only counts as one imported part because it is one solid piece molded together as opposed to the collapsible/telescoping two piece buttstock and pistol grip, which count as two.

 

However, I'm going to wait and see the part count on my letter before I proceed. Although MeanGreen's letter seems to be true and correct.

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