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ATF Response to Legality of Full Length Mag Tube on Benelli M4


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"If I read that correctly, then it does you NO good to purchase the "Field Stock" and put it on trying to eliminate one part (the pistol grip) because the ATF (in the letter) considers that either the Field Stock or the Fixed w/ PG stock the same?"

 

According to the "newest letter," that would be correct. The fixed pistol grip buttstock only counts as one imported part because it is one solid piece molded together as opposed to the collapsible/telescoping two piece buttstock and pistol grip, which count as two.

 

However, I'm going to wait and see the part count on my letter before I proceed. Although MeanGreen's letter seems to be true and correct.

 

Doesn't matter, then the shotgun loses the "Evil" PG feature and you are G2G with the mag-tube.

 

THe ATF still doesn't know what an M4 is...dual pistons. Those are 2 parts.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Whatever became of the member that was working on getting US made hammers and triggers manufactured?

 

Just like everything else. Fell by the wayside. He had some issues with the machine shop. I dont' think it was really his fault, but the machine shop had to make money so I think his project kept getting pushed back. Thats pretty much the last thing I heard or how I interpreted it anyway.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Facts:

 

1. Ok, so we have 13 parts to work with.... and need to be at 10 to remain legal.

 

2. Only the "magazine tube, forearm (hand guards), and follower can be found "made in usa".

 

3. The “13 parts” are:

1) Receiver

2) Barrel

3) Bolt

4) Bolt Carrier

5) Gas Piston

6) Trigger Housing

7) Trigger

8) Hammer

9) Disconnector

10) Buttstocks

11) Forearm

12) Magazine body

13) Followers

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Ok, so based on that… I should be able to have the magazine tube if – I put on the “made in the USA” 1 piece magazine tube. (13 - 2 (magazine body and follower) = 11). I am now at 11 parts. I now remove the forearm (hand guards) and replace them with the surefire rails (11 – 1 = 10). That takes me to 10 parts…. “Presto” my constitutional rights are restored.:D …. Right? …. :confused:…. Right guys?

 

This takes me to my next question.

Q: Now that the AWB (assault weapons ban) has expired, am I allowed to remove the 1 position recoil tube currently on my limited edition M1014 and replace it with a 3 position tube? Should be 1 imported part swapped for another right?

 

SO…. Please tell that it would be legal to have a Limited Edition M1014 with a 3 position telescoping stock, surefire rails, surefire light, mesa tactical 8 round saddle, USA made 7+1 magazine extension tube, and an EOTech… all at the same time.

 

To be clear, the weapon is currently in stock configuration. Just planning… if it were legal of course.

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Facts:

1. Ok, so we have 13 parts to work with....

 

Whoa, backup to step 0! You only have 13 imported parts if ATF says you have 13. I believe we have seen ATF letters ranging from 11 to 15 imported parts. It has been repeatedly stated that the letter only applies to the person it is addressed to. Several forum members were planning on writing to the ATF and enclosing a copy of the letter previously posted that listed 11 parts and asking the ATF to confirm the part count. There apparently is no "official" reference that they use to determine the part count and it looks like they have been tallying it up on a case by case basis. If they eventually gravitate to a standard reply to our inquiries this process will be much easier. If they confirm the part count at 11 all you have to do is swap out the evil imported magazine tube for a made in the USA part and be done with it. Heck it would be irresponsible not to do it!

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The question I have is: Does the PG/collapsible stock combo count as one or two imported items whereas the fixed stock with the PG counts as only one?

 

That's my understanding, since the PG is one part and the skeleton stock and PG come as two separate parts; but there's so much inconsistancy coming out of the ATF that it is hard to say for sure. One guy at the ATF might say that the PG stock is two parts as well. I suppose it depends on who is making the determination in your case.

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Whoa, backup to step 0! You only have 13 imported parts if ATF says you have 13. I believe we have seen ATF letters ranging from 11 to 15 imported parts. It has been repeatedly stated that the letter only applies to the person it is addressed to. Several forum members were planning on writing to the ATF and enclosing a copy of the letter previously posted that listed 11 parts and asking the ATF to confirm the part count. There apparently is no "official" reference that they use to determine the part count and it looks like they have been tallying it up on a case by case basis. If they eventually gravitate to a standard reply to our inquiries this process will be much easier. If they confirm the part count at 11 all you have to do is swap out the evil imported magazine tube for a made in the USA part and be done with it. Heck it would be irresponsible not to do it!

 

Yes, that is correct. Just trying to see if it’s even worth the letter. I need to present a good case with good details in the letter, or I will just get a "No". It would appear that the goal of the ATF agent is to find a reason to tell you that you can't have the gun. In the prior letters, it would seem that they simply looked for a way to say no. They found two additional parts to the last quote of "11" conveniently enough to say "No".

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“That's my understanding, since the PG is one part and the skeleton stock and PG come as two separate parts; but there's so much inconsistency coming out of the ATF that it is hard to say for sure. One guy at the ATF might say that the PG stock is two parts as well. I suppose it depends on who is making the determination in your case.”

Hmmmm… yes I now see that the pistol grip is counted separately. Bastards… So essentially, the configuration of the Limited Edition M1014 may have 14 parts according to ATF analysis counting the pistol grip and stock separately. Or at least they could say 14 once they notice that the last part is a burden. Looks to me like they are finding a way to say no each time.

The whole thing begs for common sense though. No matter how they slice it… I have a functional semi-automatic shotgun. My stock won’t collapse… OMG that will definitely matter in a firefight… wait…

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As I understand it though, there is some other way to "register" the gun legally in any configuration I wanted right? I've been told that you can get a "short barrel" registration which allows you to modify the gun however you want? Anyone that can explain this in more detail?

I have a few other weapons that are registered, so I don't mind doing this again, but I had a great contact at the gun store who prepared the paperwork, and I have since moved.

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... It would appear that the goal of the ATF agent is to find a reason to tell you that you can't have the gun...

 

I think you have a point. I have a feeling that even if we change all the parts for the 922r, they will still come back with another reason to say no...

 

Regards,

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Here is a guide that all ATF Agents i am sure are aware of and probably understand better than most, if i owned a M4 i would probably find a Class III/NFA Attorney that might understand the ATF side of this issue a little better?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/nfa_handbook-rev0409.pdf

Happy reading!

So i guess the Benelli Mag extension i bought for my SBEII before they outlawed them ($65.00) is illegal? Oh well when and if i wanta install it it's going to go on when i want it on! Letter or no letter, living in NM has it's advantages being the WW West!

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So essentially, the configuration of the Limited Edition M1014 may have 14 parts according to ATF analysis counting the pistol grip and stock separately.

 

Yup and that's assuming MeanGreen's letter is correct and you only count the dual gas pistons as one.

 

As I understand it though, there is some other way to "register" the gun legally in any configuration I wanted right? I've been told that you can get a "short barrel" registration which allows you to modify the gun however you want? Anyone that can explain this in more detail?

 

That has nothing to do with 922®.

 

Q: Now that the AWB (assault weapons ban) has expired, am I allowed to remove the 1 position recoil tube currently on my limited edition M1014 and replace it with a 3 position tube?

 

The AG has stated the collapsible stock is not suitable or readily adaptable for sporting purposes which is why the M4 is not imported that way to the general public; therefore if you want to assemble the 3 position tube (so your two piece would then be collapsible) you have to drop to 10 parts or less. Unfortunately in the here and the now there are not enough USA made parts to assemble the three position tube and be complaint with 922®.

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hey SHADOW SHOOTER, do you know what yr the AG made this 922/10 parts law? what im getting at is, could i have owned my m4 w/ collapsible stock before this law? thanks skeeter

 

1993.. If you bought your M4 with the collapsible stock attached you're GTG as 922® only applies to the assembly of parts not mere possession, which is one reason why you see such a premium for M4s w/ collapsible stocks and/or full length mag tubes on gunbroker.com et al.

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Here is a guide that all ATF Agents i am sure are aware of and probably understand better than most, if i owned a M4 i would probably find a Class III/NFA Attorney that might understand the ATF side of this issue a little better?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/nfa_handbook-rev0409.pdf

Happy reading!

 

After giving it a quick read, while intersting, it doesn't help us at all. I was referring to the apparent lack of published details of the imported guns. You would think that with all the paperwork required to import a gun that somewhere there would be an official list of component parts. The way I interpret the whole thing is that if you buy a new imported gun from a dealer it is by definition compliant with 922®. If you can buy it, it is a gun suitable for sporting purposes. As soon as you start adding parts you are considered to be "assembling" a gun from imported parts. Neither Benelli nor the ATF has any motivation to anticipate all the possible modifications someone could make.

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