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panabax

USA Made M4 Gas Piston Prototype

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i agree with ya 100% OHIO!! it almost really doesnt matter what we as firearm owners do, the MAN can do whatever he wants and who's to stop em?? not to mention we have the MOST CROOKED ADMINISTRATION now in the history of this country!!;) but, having the stamped USA parts can't hurt either....:p

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I'm goin to the mall in the AM and getting some pistons engraved. The government has the burden of proof to fully determine the origin of the pistons even if they are identical. What are they gonna do, grind up Italian pistons and do a metalergy test? Maybe obama will fund that project too.

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Seriously, when they open I'm droppin em off and I will post pics in the evening. Just wait :D

 

Hey Skeet, hows my stock? Take care of it.

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The whole thing is like a Kafka novel. You can't win, heck you can't even learn the rules. Even the folks with letters from the ATF... ARE NOT SAFE! There is no precedent that the letter will save your butt (or even your gun). The "man" has been inconsistent in answering our inquiries and some of the letters posted were not even signed by a person. They reserve the right to change their mind anytime they feel like it and there is no guarantee you will even get your day in court. If they want you, the part count will suddenly change to 15.

 

As to the "Made in USA" security blanket, there are not any real rules except for textiles, furs, and automobile parts. Our wonderful gubment cannot agree on what "Made in USA" actually means, much less write any coherent laws, regulations, or rules on the subject. I just proved that a part stamped "Made in USA" can be counterfeited for $3! I have to imagine the burden of proof is on you! Can you prove where the steel was originally smelted? What about all the additives and alloys? It's a false security, you're chasing after some vague 922r compliance and stepping into a whole new world of vague FTC "Country of Origin" compliance issues.

 

Why is everyone doing this? My M4 with PG stock will blow just as big a hole in someone as the "Tacticool" version. You are risking a lot for vanity. If you really "need" the "evil" features...and are worried about 922r compliance...buy another gun!

Man, I want you to represent me in Court when I am charged with a ATF violation. You could make a dirt bag of the Trail,look like a sweet and innocent Angel.

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Great work. It doesn't matter how much it costs or how many get sold. Just having the details posted on the Internet is very helpful (to me:cool:)

 

Confidentially, i'm working on my own version.

 

1) Buy 2 suitable "piston blanks", e.g. Brownell's SKU #:301-000-512 (or use the two that came in your M4)

2) Make substantive changes to the piston blanks:

a) Stone off any sharp edges

b) Heat treat by alternating between a refrigerator and kitchen counter to to "relax" the metal.

c) Demagnetize the blank.

d) Polish portions of the shaft.

e) File a flat on the blank.

f) Go to the Mall

g) Stop by "Things Remembered"

h) Have them engraved "Made in USA"

 

Note: Steps a-e are optional. Its simpler to say you purchased the items from "some guy" on the Benelli forum.

 

If you use the "piston blank" turnings that came in your M4, your total cost will be $9/piston for the engraving. If you tell them these are gifts for your Grandma, who happens to be named "Ursula Stanford Abrahms", and just get her initials engraved, it's only $3/piston!

 

YOU GUYS WORRY WAY TOO MUCH! :eek:

I am pulling my two pistins out today. I will Gold Plate them both and Stamp USA 32703. Thanks for the ID.

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... it almost really doesn't matter what we as firearm owners do, the MAN can do whatever he wants and who's to stop em?? not to mention we have the MOST CROOKED ADMINISTRATION now in the history of this country!! but, having the stamped USA parts can't hurt either....

 

Next trip to the gun show I'm planning to pick up some stuff via "private sale". I'm liking the paperwork less and less. A few cheap guns that I'm not the buyer of record for is far more valuable than a gas piston stamped USA!

 

I'm goin to the mall in the AM and getting some pistons engraved. The government has the burden of proof to fully determine the origin of the pistons even if they are identical. What are they gonna do, grind up Italian pistons and do a metalergy test? Maybe obama will fund that project too.

 

This is the "Burden of Proof" defense. They say Made in USA! Where did those pesky things come from? Regarding the metallurgy testing, I doubt that any trial lawyer would tolerate destructive testing of evidence. If they so much as take filings from it, move for a mistrial.

 

I am pulling my two pistons out today. I will Gold Plate them both and Stamp USA 32703. Thanks for the ID.

 

For a more convincing argument than the "Burden of Proof" you are adding the "Substantive Transformation" argument. Anything that makes the pistons look different from a stock piston will be helpful (reasonable doubt). I was thinking of coating or plating the minor diameters with some material, Teflon maybe. Make sure you leave all wearing surfaces stock. Made in USA can be applied to some items provided the last substantive transformation of the object occurred in the USA. What constitutes a substantive transformation could be argued until doomsday.

 

My profuse apologies to Panabax! I did not mean to diminish your achievement in any way and was actually contemplating doing the same thing. The prototypes look really good and I wish you the best of luck on your endeavor. With a list price of $100+ for a single piston at Brownells' you should be able to produce a suitable "Made in USA" option at a profit.I'm sure there is still a market for you. I was just trying to point out some of our folly and preoccupation with 922r compliance.:)

Edited by OhioM4

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Congratulations! We have a winner!

 

Boy...you can always tell American quality when you see it.

 

Now the only thing you have to worry about is exporting them from the country;)

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That's to simple, it can't work.

 

I suggest deleting this whole thread (or at least the last few pages) and just selling these made in USA pistons..

 

Just saying..

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Look my friends, USA made pistons showed up this morning.

I think my machinist can make a few more, :D.

 

Nicely done Sir! with this technique you could quickly reduce your imported parts count to zero!

 

Hookster :)

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Exactly Hookster, fight stupid laws with a stupid fix. Prove the origin of a USA stamped item even if its identical to others. Kinda along the same lines, morons in Sacramento, CA that tried to rid people of the ability to own AR-15's. A few mfg.'s decided to create identical lower receivers with a different stamp on the side and all of a sudden you can purchase what is called an, "off the list lower receiver."

What makes it off the list?, THE STAMP ON THE SIDE. Total BS, but there is obviously power behind a stamp. I can get a felony for having a Colt or Bushmaster but not a Noveske or Stag. Same round, same internal parts, looks identical from 10 feet but one is illegal, go figure.

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WOW you guys are a funny group of people....

 

I hope the irony is not lost on everyone that this thread started out with panabax doing what we all wanted and making for real USA pistons. Everyone was slapping him on the back and wishing him the best of luck...why not? it looked like he had a good thing going and something that just about everyone with an M4 would want.

 

BUT now you guys have completely usurped his work with a $9 stamp job ON HIS OWN THREAD!

 

O the IRONY!!!! Panabax let this be a lesson to you: No good need goes unpunished :p

Edited by agm65ccip
I'd like to get panabax's name right

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WOW you guys are a funny group of people....

 

I hope the irony is not lost on everyone that this thread started out with panabax doing what we all wanted and making for real USA pistons. Everyone was slapping him on the back and wishing him the best of luck...why not? it looked like he had a good thing going and something that just about everyone with an M4 would want.

 

BUT now you guys have completely usurped his work with a $9 stamp job ON HIS OWN THREAD!

 

O the IRONY!!!! Panabax let this be a lesson to you: No good need goes unpunished :p

 

The irony was not lost. I apologized once I realized I let the Genie out of the lamp:

 

My profuse apologies to Panabax! I did not mean to diminish your achievement in any way and was actually contemplating doing the same thing. The prototypes look really good and I wish you the best of luck on your endeavor. With a list price of $100+ for a single piston at Brownells' you should be able to produce a suitable "Made in USA" option at a profit.I'm sure there is still a market for you. I was just trying to point out some of our folly and preoccupation with 922r compliance.:)

 

I still think its false security. Until we can get a credible legal opinion, I don't believe any of it. The ATF obviously does not want certain configurations of guns imported or assembled. They clearly defined what "Non-Sporting" means. What part of the concept don't you understand? Wishful thinking about imagined loopholes counts for nothing. If you are worried about compliance, don't modify your imported Benelli.

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I can eye-ball the picture and tell you that they aren't the same. Not that it is critical that they be the same, but I figure they were designed with certain angles, etc. for a reason. It begs the question from others: "what else is different?"

 

Being as this is a highly stressed part, material and heat-treat are going to be HUGE. THen you will need to test the design pretty hard to ensure that it is durible. Just a lot of reliability headaches/worries with this part.

 

20sj11c.jpg

 

Let's try to get the thread back on track for Panabax. Given the recent debate over what constitutes "Made in USA" and how easy it is to knock off a fake. I think that anyone truly interested in a real USA part would want some easily identifiable differences between your piston and a stock Benelli one. You may want to leave at least one of the minor diameters a fraction larger than stock, or make some minor changes to the radii. I would lean towards leaving more material on the piston if possible as that would preclude any challenges of simply modifying a stock one (you could have easily removed metal from a stock piston but it would be much harder to add metal). A beefier design would also help any concerns of the stresses the piston would suffer from in action. The big concern will be weight. I would imagine small changes in weight on the moving parts could (speculating here) have a dramatic effect on performance. I look forward to your testing and should you figure out how to produce them at a reasonable price you can put me down for two.

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For the record I would buy Panabax's piston if it's offered for sale.

 

What he said. waiting patiently.

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Very nice looking parts. When, if ever, do you intend to offer them for sale?

 

Oh, for those looking to just engrave their current pistons after announcing in on here - wow. just wow.

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