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And maybe aliens made the hammers and gave them to FFT in an effort to thwart properly operating shotguns?

 

I don't think it is a good idea to be purely speculating on this.

 

When you have limited information to make a proper decision, the best one can do is speculate and rank the risks/likelihoods. Right now, for me, that means staying away from all the FFT trigger parts until more is known about the 'soft' metal issue and other Quality control issues; it also makes me hold off on an H20 until more is known regarding if they have a 'soft' USA trigger group issue too.

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When you have limited information to make a proper decision, the best one can do is speculate and rank the risks/likelihoods. Right now, for me, that means staying away from all the FFT trigger parts until more is known about the 'soft' metal issue and other Quality control issues; it also makes me hold off on an H20 until more is known regarding if they have a 'soft' USA trigger group issue too.

 

You really think Benelli is installing "soft triggers" into the M4 H2O, essentially the same M4 that they have been building for the US Military since 1999?

 

As soon as I get my H2O, I'll be putting a couple hundred rounds of buckshot and other shells down range with it, I'll let you know how she holds up, I am not too concerned based on all the other M4s that are out there.

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I just installed a second set of FFT parts lastnight in a newer production 11707. No issues whatsoever. No failures as of yet on the first set in around 400 - 500 rounds. Some marring on the front face of the hammer. It appears to just be the finish getting scuffed. It's a non-issue.

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You really think Benelli is installing "soft triggers" into the M4 H2O, essentially the same M4 that they have been building for the US Military since 1999?

"Essentially the same M4 that they have been building for the US Military since 1999...." Not exactly.

 

Four H20 parts are of domestic origin. Absent Benelli compliance particulars or FFT source clarity, TKTM and others are searching for plausible explainations regarding photos of peened domestic hammers. Scratched hammers are normal. Peened, mushroomed, or otherwise deformed domestic trigger components do NOT bode well for what lay ahead in the vicinity of sear/disconnector mating surfaces.

Why risk it? Hopefully not for a lighter trigger pull, since several reviews state their trigger pack produced a gritty and/or heavier pull. That's just the nature of drop in parts with the M4's trigger geometry/principle.

 

A tube, follower, reputable Geissele hammer and FFT's (or Surefire) handguard covers all bases for any M4 configuration without the potential for peril, for less money.

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You really think Benelli is installing "soft triggers" into the M4 H2O, essentially the same M4 that they have been building for the US Military since 1999?

 

As has been pointed out they are not exactly the same gun, and I certainly hope that Benelli is doing the required quality control testing. But getting heat treatment right, and catching it when its wrong, is something that befuddles many companies; heck I even once had a slide on an HK USP9 that was improperly heat treated and failed as a result.

 

My GUESS is that the parts FFT is selling are ones that did not meet Benelli's quality control requirements; and, that the company that made those parts doesn't want the resultant quality issues to tarnish their reputation, hence the secrecy surrounding the manufacturer.

 

BUT THAT IS ALL A GUESS, "US made" 922r fire 'trigger parts' have had issues in all sorts of weapons. It would not shock me if the H20 parts are soft too. The key is to be aware of the situation and possibilities and not unnecessarily alter any weapon your life may rely on.

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"Essentially the same M4 that they have been building for the US Military since 1999...." Not exactly.

 

Four H20 parts are of domestic origin. Absent Benelli compliance particulars or FFT source clarity, TKTM and others are searching for plausible explainations regarding photos of peened domestic hammers.

 

So it is alright to make unfounded and speculative connections between stock M4 H2O parts and aftermarket domestic FFT parts that had issues with the trigger? Has there been even one confirmed case of a trigger problem with a stock M4 H2O?

 

My authorized Benelli dealer, when asked about 922r compliance of the M4 H2O did not mention the trigger as one of the four parts they substituted with US made parts.

 

My GUESS is that the parts FFT is selling are ones that did not meet Benelli's quality control requirements; and, that the company that made those parts doesn't want the resultant quality issues to tarnish their reputation, hence the secrecy surrounding the manufacturer.

 

BUT THAT IS ALL A GUESS, "US made" 922r fire 'trigger parts' have had issues in all sorts of weapons. It would not shock me if the H20 parts are soft too. The key is to be aware of the situation and possibilities and not unnecessarily alter any weapon your life may rely on.

 

The key is not to make wild speculative rumors but factual based explanations. The Internet is full of half truths and lies, I see no reason to add to them. One report of an issue with an FFT hammer should not result in "wild ass guesses" that the supplier of that hammer is the same as the hammers in the stock M4 H2O just because the FFT hammer happens to be NP3 coated.

 

Show me the same issues with a stock M4 H2O trigger as the FFT trigger and at that point in time it might be a worthwhile discussion.

 

Regards,

 

Rich

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So it is alright to make unfounded and speculative connections between stock M4 H2O parts and aftermarket domestic FFT parts....

I only stated my understanding of why TKTM and others are searching for plausible explainations when pertinent details are withheld.

My authorized Benelli dealer, when asked about 922r compliance of the M4 H2O did not mention the trigger as one of the four parts they substituted with US made parts.

If this matters that much to you as well, then please tell us which 4 he did mention.

 

 

 

 

 

The key is not to make wild speculative rumors but factual based explanations. The Internet is full of half truths and lies, I see no reason to add to them. One report of an issue with an FFT hammer should not result in "wild ass guesses" that the supplier of that hammer is the same as the hammers in the stock M4 H2O just because the FFT hammer happens to be NP3 coated.

Nothing wild about it, no half truths here either. Nor is it a lie to wonder out loud, when "mum's the word" bred the open pondering. There has been more than one report, unless Google replicated the findings here in multiple forums. Either way decisive action is likely, and here is where we learn how and when FFT might address the quandry. Their past would indicate they might completely resolve the issue, and here is where we find out, with your blessing of course.

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You're all over the place with this, please stop. Why would a company, FFT in this case, sell consumers a product that they knew did not meet the specifications of the manufacturer? Or worse, why would that manufacturer resell components they knew did not pass factory tests?

 

Do you really believe that a company would be that dumb or underhanded in a community as tight knit as this one? Your only link for the logic train is that the parts are NP3 coated...so what? There are literally dozens of reasons why this finish would be used, all valid and none of which speak to a conspiracy. You're basically speculating that the H2O is heading out with crap internals...why? To paraphrase RDA1, you don't have any data to support any of your conclusions, you're heaping nonsensical misinformation on a thread about FFT parts and how well perform.

Edited by joshua1240

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You're all over the place with this, please stop.

If your willing to risk your life on changes to a weapon without exploring the risks, that is one thing; but it is completely another to ask others not to do the same. What is your motivation?

 

Why would a company, FFT in this case, sell consumers a product that they knew did not meet the specifications of the manufacturer? Or worse, why would that manufacturer resell components they knew did not pass factory tests? Do you really believe that a company would be that dumb or underhanded in a community as tight knit as this one?

 

I guess you did not read what I wrote; but let it me put it this way: I don't think HK was being less than reputable when they sold me a pistol without a properly heat treated slide. Nor do I think that numerous US made trigger groups for other weapons, which also had issues, where a sign of ill repute with those companies.

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Hey Josh,

You are espousing many things. Not helping much. Conspiracies? Really? Who? Conclusions? Where?

Pictures, theories and reviews are priceless. Only a conspiracy if they were photoshopped. We aren't drawing conclusions. FFT has every right to guard their source, and Benelli might be too busy to spell out their build spec sheet, which leads some folks to think out loud.

Ease up and let them troubleshoot. Even RDA1 suggested alien intervention. Roll with it. Not all the intel is bad.

 

P.S. TKTM your last paragraph was very well put. Thanks.

Edited by marc63

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A very good friend in Houston frequently participates in charity cycling tours and he owns a Benelli. He is interested in my opinion regarding trigger parts as candidates for complance with his C-stock, which is the only reason he and I were reading this thread. One of his riding partners uses High Resolution ICP-MS Ultra-Trace Metals Analysis machines in his line of work. I have no idea what that is, but he messaged an overview of how it can be used for grins;

"Take side by side samples, run a 3/16" ram EDM 5 thousanths down to obliterate surface contaminants, then scrub. Follow this with virgin electrodes and electrolyte and plunge with a 1/16" electrode to a depth of twenty thousanths in each sample. Cull the electrolyte, and spent electrode material, and run a simple trace analysis on what remains."

 

He enjoys tinkering with the equipment, which he states;

 

"...can determine the statistical probability of whether two parts were fabricated from raw materials that came from the same mill source. Mills have distinct process traces, handling traces, alloying ratios, and atmospheric content traits which produce a "DNA" profile for lack of better words."

He can't always determine where the materials came from without mill-cert sheets, but he CAN tell us if an FFT trigger is a Benelli remanufactured part since FFT ain't talking. Anyone have one they want to loan to him? He lives in Houston, and I can vouch for him. He is pairing the sought after FFT sample with his Benelli M4 sample. He promises the part will not be destroyed, and can be placed back into immediate service once the analysis is complete. I suggested he buy one himself, but he does not want it if the part proves to be of an inferior alloy, meaning he probably WILL buy the FFT trigger if it proves to be a Benelli reman part, unlike the hammer which appears to be of distinct origin. I have no dog in it, and suspect he won't be disappointed if there are no takers, but I'd want to play with that equipment too if I had access to it. :D

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If your willing to risk your life on changes to a weapon without exploring the risks, that is one thing; but it is completely another to ask others not to do the same. What is your motivation?

 

I guess you did not read what I wrote; but let it me put it this way: I don't think HK was being less than reputable when they sold me a pistol without a properly heat treated slide. Nor do I think that numerous US made trigger groups for other weapons, which also had issues, where a sign of ill repute with those companies.

 

You're risking your life with a half-assed theory on an internet forum? You lost me there.

 

The trigger and hammer are not being replaced to make the M4 H2O 922r compliant....that's where the idea about these being resold reject parts falls to pieces. They're not, and it's an unnecessary divergance from the real meat of the topic which is "why are these parts not matching the performance and capability of stock parts?" When I get a chance I will post some pictures from another thread that showcases the internals of the trigger group that clarifies this topic a bit.

 

Creating these parts to match the specifications of the manufacturer is as much an art as it is a science. No gun company is going to willingly divulge successful metallurgy, it has to be painstakingly reverse engineered. That's the crux, and that's the real heart of the discussion...

 

and marc63, I have no idea what you are asking me so I'm not even going to try to respond.

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You're risking your life with a half-assed theory on an internet forum? You lost me there.....
Ummmm. Those pictures aren't half a**ed theory Its risky to depend on parts that deform.
No gun company is going to willingly divulge successful metallurgy....
OK. Not willfully, but proudly, if they're using the good stuff.
When I get a chance I will post some pictures from another thread that showcases the internals of the trigger group that clarifies this topic a bitCreating these parts to match the specifications of the manufacturer is as much an art as it is a science.......
Sweet!! Now you're talking! Post a link to that jam packed thread!!!, and hopefully one that is chok full of hard data, sources, proud materials selection, and renowned component origin would be nice. Otherwise you are only showing us the flip-side of the same coin we have here, specualtive etc. Pony up the truth. You still haven't even told us what 4 components your Benelli rep DID mention were addressed on the H20. We're tired of what you called "nonsensical misinformation , half-assed theories. conspiracies and speculation" , enlighten us.
and marc63, I have no idea what you are asking me so I'm not even going to try to respond
Wasn't a question really. Just wondered like others what your motivation is, we just want raw data, bring us that, not opposing speculation and you'll be the cat's meow. Otherwise.... yawn. Edited by marc63

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You still haven't even told us what 4 components your Benelli rep DID mention were addressed on the H20.

 

I think you are confusing "Joshue1240" and I, I was the one that mentioned my authorized Benelli dealer and not noting the trigger as one of the items that was replaced with a US part. I couldn't remember what parts he said off the top of my head, I only know he didn't mention the trigger. I have sent him a message to see if he could tell me again. I am also going to be seeing him tonight so if I don't hear before then, I'll have an answer later today.

 

Wasn't a question really. Just wondered like others what your motivation is, we just want raw data, bring us that, not opposing speculation and you'll be the cat's meow. Otherwise.... yawn.

 

You pretty much make my point here, I want real data, not pure speculation that a questionable aftermarket US made NP3 coated part is a Benelli factory second part or there is a connection between both parts and that they are inferior.

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You pretty much make my point here, I want real data, not pure speculation that a questionable aftermarket US made NP3 coated part is a Benelli factory second part or there is a connection between both parts and that they are inferior.

 

If there was no speculation no one might ever check, but now that it has been speculated hopefully someone will put some rounds down a H20 and take pictures of the hammer for indications of deformation.

 

And along those same lines, BM4robbins, has got a lead to see if the parts are of the same production.

 

The important thing is that speculation is on the side of shooter safety.

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Disregard post #102.

Despite having an FFT trigger headed to the Houston facility to sample product origin ...He decided after reviewing FFT claims of product superiority over Geissele, (see AR15.com threads), and having FFT staff incessantly bad mouth several competitors on the phone, that he wants nothing to do with FFT's products or practice. At this point he only trusts the Geissele hammer option, with its lack of ambiguity. He also mentioned securing a US made M4 disconnector with a tungsten carbide coated mating surface he seems very pleased with so he appears to be set for life.

Thanks for everyone's help.

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Disregard post #102.

Despite having an FFT trigger headed to the Houston facility to sample product origin ...He decided after reviewing FFT claims of product superiority over Geissele, (see AR15.com threads), and having FFT staff incessantly bad mouth several competitors on the phone, that he wants nothing to do with FFT's products or practice. At this point he only trusts the Geissele hammer option, with its lack of ambiguity. He also mentioned securing a US made M4 disconnector with a tungsten carbide coated mating surface he seems very pleased with so he appears to be set for life.

Thanks for everyone's help.

 

Hey I'm not a member over there..........would you mind posting some links to those threads? Thanks.

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Here's one of them. The 9th post onwards relates. Confirmed by the calls made from Houston as well. FFT expends notable effort verbally lancing their competitors. Unfortunate.

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=365863

 

So one post from a guy who says that he talked to FFT and they said their parts were better? What makes you trust this guy versus any other doofus on the internet?:confused:

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So one post from a guy who says that he talked to FFT and they said their parts were better? What makes you trust this guy versus any other doofus on the internet?:confused:

 

I don't.

That thread was brought to my attention by one of my peers who had a similar phone experience with Freedom Fighter Tactical. His personal account is the one I put faith in. He asked me to take a look at many threads (including ours here) and help him decide how to view 922 jargon. I was hard pressed to respond to your inquiry since I agree hear-say is all forums contain. I answered you based on my faith in his personal account, which I do trust. His experience caused him to shy away, when he observed another doofus had a similar chat. It confused him more than anything else, since FFT was the only source poo-pooing Geissele.

Edited by BM4robbins

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