Unobtanium

The same thing that happens when your ineffective ammunition choice fails to incapacitate him within a shot or two. You end up dead/injured. However, since the poster does not wish to use anything more effective than birdshot or fad ammo, what can I advise?

Okay, you think the 357SIG is NOT equal to the 357 magnum? Well in the 150gr+ loads you are 100% correct. However, in the 125gr loads (if you are familiar with the .357 mag's track record, you will know it made it's name with 125gr JHP's), the rounds give very similar performance. Double Tap even has a load that will punch 1450+fps in 357SIG. The hottest thing I have seen in 9mm Is the Ranger T +P+ 127gr (an excellent round btw). It clocks at around 1220-1275fps, depending on the weapon. So let me get this straight, you ran over a thousand dollars worth of this stuff through your weapon? Or did you get a deal on it? If you payed list price, no wonder you refuse to believe the stuff is crap, you payed an arm and a leg for it! If I was faced with admitting that I wasted 1K, I would disagree vehemently too! As to making your house a vault. I agree, you CAN fortify it, and this is well and good. A good solid dead-bolt and front door like you have are EXCELLENT ideas. The window bars are icing on the cake. I would also recommend a good dog. Seriously, dogs can/have turned the tide more than once! Good companionship as well. I would also recommend that you stop taking the word of some police officer that may or may not know his head from a hole in the ground. Stop reading adds, stop shooting water buckets, and start making phone-calls. Now this is if you honestly care about the topic here. CALL some of these people. Go on, pick up the phone and call Gunsite. Call Thunder Ranch. They would be MORE than happy to offer their expert opinions on the ammo being discussed here. I honestly think that if you intend to better yourself, or to vindicate yourself, whichever may end up being the case for you, that you do so with a reliable source. Talk to someone who has used and does know how these things perform. Not just once or twice, but over and over and over again. I have heard stories of Brahma bulls being killed with a large stick to the head. I would NOT, however, base my safety on that one incident. So go ahead, call someone who knows more than you (or I, or anyone else on here I would wager) AND ASK THEM! If you don't want to do that, then at least join a forum dedicated to the topic in this thread. www.stoppingpower.net as well as www.tacticalforums.com are two such forums. I tend to prefer the latter as it is much less biased and has more surgeons/coroners/ect. on the board. I have researched, this stuff to death, I know a lot of guys on the force here who HAVE had to use lethal force, ect. I have looked at this topic up and down and am familiar with every round you have mentioned and it's average effect on the human body. I am FAR from an expert, but I do know enough to know that you have not even scratched the surface of terminal ballistics and I am trying to steer you to a place where you can make an informed decision, whether it coincides with mine or not doesn't matter to me. I simply want you to base your opinions on something other than shooting a 35# animal or a water jug. If I based ALL my thoughts on that I would conclude thus-far: A random pellet of #3 buck is enough. A shotgun slug will only penetrate 2 milk jugs. Walmart WWB JHP's perform better than Speer Gold Dot's. I have shot milk-jugs/coyotes with the above results. Are they correct? I think not. They were ONE TIME and in THAT scenario, though. Here is Speer 125gr GOld Dot .357 magnum ammunition. http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23920 Here is Speer 125gr Gold Dot 357 SIG ammunition http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23918 The 357 mag has a 100fps advantage on the SIG. While this is a difference, it is not a whole lot of one. THe 9mm +P 124gr was 130fps behind the SIG round, so the SIG is closer to the magnum than is the 9mm, and like I said, Double Tap loads some SIG that is hotter than the Magnum stuff. However, since Speer manufactures each bullet to the velocity of the cartridge, not a lot will be gained as they tune each round for optimal expansion/penetration within it's performance envelope (look at a GDHP 9mm vs. 357 round sometime, visible difference in the hollowpoint). At any rate, this has turned into just some pissing contest and I doubt you get anything out of my post as I have given you a wealth of knowledge and resources in my previous posts and you did nothing with it either. This is my last INFORMATIVE post in this topic unless you have any specific questions. I am not going to waste any more time unless someone is benefitting from it. ETA: Seriously, why don't you consider something like a taser gun? It is non-lethal, and proven effective. It WONT go through a wall, and if you mistakenly hit your wife with it, the worst that will happen will be her response to you. Just something for you to consider.

Wherever a smart person spends his energy "proofing" something, a stupid person will spend vast amounts of time and brute force "un-proofing" it. There is no way your home could ever be as solid as a bank vault, and yet history dictates that even a bank vault is at risk. As far as the ammunition you are using, it comes from a scam-artist company. If NOTHING else, I would NOT trust their quality control. You have shot what, 5-20 rounds of the stuff? If that? You have no idea how often those rounds do fragment. Try shooting 1,000 of them and you will gain a general idea of it. What you have done is about like marrying a girl after the 2nd date just because she said her father is an oil baron and she has a pretty smile. Think about this. Federal air marshalls use Speer Gold Dot ammunition. In 357SIG (very similar, terminally, to what you have, a .357 magnum). Now, do you think there might just be a bit of liability firing a gun in a tubular vehicle PACKED with passengers? WHY would the Federal Air Marshalls pick a needlessly over-penetrating round if some nitro-whatever would be superior? Do you think they are on THAT tight of a budget? If they feel strongly enough that they need a round that penetrates enough to take a person down enough to use it on an airplane vs. some "wonder-round", maybe you too should reconsider.

Step 1: Join this forum (Check) Step 2: Check it frequently (Check?) Step 4: Look for "I can't get my !$@$ Barrel to mate with the reciever properly" posts. Step 5: Make low-ball cash offer. Step 6: Revel in your new to you weapon and cunning ways.

Welcome! I am in 1st level clinicals getting my BSN.

The hornady's front "prongs" (I guess you call it that) are a BIT closer to the mouth of the shot cup. Other than that, they are IDENTICAL save for the color. I mean right down to haveing "12" on the inside of the base. Hornady basically changed the TDP a HAIR and doesn't advertise and so they can do it. That is my guess anyways, don't quote me on it though! Oh yeah, Hornady added 1 petal to the base and it looks like MAYBE reduced 1 petal on the front (3 instead of 4?) ETA: Nothing conclusive, but I took some regular Win Super X non-plated buck and compared it to this TAP stuff. When I pressed some sharp tweezers into the shot, it went about 2X as deep into the Super X as the TAP. Also, the SUper X is of a darker color. This seems to coraborate with HOG's statement about the antimony/hardened shot. From what I can see, my 8 boxes for $57 wasn't a bad deal for just stumbling onto it at the shop.

ER. This guy is a mall-ninja type and you won't get anywhere with your logic. I have tried and failed. As to this add by Extreme Shock, here you go 556. BTW 556. What does my race (or yours) have to do with anything? Also, for the love of your family, PLEASE, seek some good information. You obviously have no idea what is what in the world of terminal ballistics. ^Same guy, 3 times, photo-shopped. Here is a link to the scammers site. http://www.extremeshockusa.com/ Evan Marshall Ed Sanow Clint Smith All of these guys would either piss their pants laughing at you for buying this stuff, or shaking their heads with pity and disgust. Then again, what do they know? *SIGH* There is no saving some people from themselves.

Hrmm, I will pattern them and see what's up. It looks identical to the FC wad on Federal's site though.

I disected some OO Hornady FPD today. This is the wad. Is it flight control? THe load had 8 non-plated, non-buffered OO rounds in this cup. The buck appeared to have no hardening as I could easily mar it with my thumb-nail. It appeared smoother/rounder than the remington or winchester buck I have seen. The box says 1600fps.

I don't understand. I have heard of this happening on Benelli M4's, but on mine, it would have to blow the cap off the end of the tube that holds the barrel in place. HOW are these springs launching during use?!

Okay, my advice at this point is to go back to square one and do some research and get that crap out of your gun, man.No offence, I got taken in by the hype too when I was in highschool. I had a friend who had some RBCD ammunition and I bought it. Total farce. What you are using is not cool. I recommend you join www.tacticalforums.com It is an un-biased site that you can learn a lot from, I know I did. Just post up asking about your choice in ammo and how you could better it. There are surgeons, MD's, and TONS of seasoned LE on there. They won't steer you wrong. Let me guess, Extreme Shok ammo? The company that photo-shops their add to make it appear as though there is a black guy as well, when it is really just some white guy 3 times? Look at the hands, lmao, black guy/white hands! ETA: This is not a personal attack. Please just do some research and set "self" and your ego aside for about 30 minutes while you do a few searches on the website I referred you to. I am just trying to help you out with one of the greatest/most dangerous to YOU, scams in the industry.

Benelli claims the M4 can go "10K rounds w/o an overhaul". I should think it could do a good many more than this. How many rounds have YOU put down the tube? What model do you have (2 or 4 port barrel?) Looking for an answer to these two questions to support my hypothesis. Post 'em up!

This is such a heated topic because we are not discussing "Ranger T vs. Federal HST". THAT is opinion (in my opinion). We are discussing something that 2 groups of people feel VERY strongly about and there is no way for there to be a compromise here. There is going to have to be a begrudging acceptance from both parties that neither is going to change their ways, both parties will think the other stupid for their choice, and move on with life. Sometimes, that is just what has to happen. This is not kindergarden and we do not all get along on everything. Since both parties have shown they refuse to back down on their opinion, the goal now is to be mature enough to confine our disagreements and angst to this one thread and one topic and leave it at that.

Maybe I should take into account that someone who says someone got knocked back "20 feet" when they shot them is a bit prone to outbursts/exaggerations (So I exaggerated as well. I figured you would realise the hyperbole in your post, but instead you had a little outburst), and other things of the sort, including character assasination and whatnot. So I will simply overlook all of your bold-type and charming rhetoric. As to my appartment having brick walls, what should it have? Sheet-metal? Maybe stucco? Seriously, where do you live in DFW? All my friends live in brick houses and appartments there. If you want to cite Clint Smith and his advice, then TAKE IT. Don't cite him and then do the opposite of his best advice. While Glaser safety slugs are a step up from bird-shot to be sure, take into account that you are far more likely to miss than to over-penetrate, with ANY round. Especially from a pistol in a high-stress situation. Firearms CAN kill people. When used properly though, that risk is minimized (I say minimized b/c in a shooting, you can't always pick your backstop. Sometimes it is shoot or be shot.). What you are trying to do is build a nerf-car basically. It's not going to happen. Accept the risk of using an effective round, or accept that what you DO use is not going to be the best and prepair accordingly. Don't make excuses for inferior alternatives. Almost every single person in the field of terminal ballistics from coroners to officers to MD's will tell you birdshot is NOT the way to go. There is nothing you can say to convince me, or others in the know otherwise, the fact that you have convinced yourself not withstanding.

If you have a hall that is well over 20' long I am impressed! I know you didn't shoot him with the muzzle pressed against him, so what does this mean? Maybe a 30' hall? Well, I live in an appartment (brick exterior walls, before you ask), so maybe I am just a bit mentally cramped when imagining a felon flying 20' PLUS his distance from me when I fired without hitting a wall/furniture. How high off the ground was he lifted? Did it look like when Popeye gives a bad guy an upper-cut? or was it like, he was running backwards windmilling his arms? I am trying to picture this and not able to. Also, 3 minutes? Your cops have some GREAT response time. Then again, I have a lot of friends in DFW and there is a pretty good police presence in some areas. My advice? Your opinion is obviously as out of proportion as your account. If you care THIS much about "overpenetration" then get an Ar-15 and run hornady T2 in it. One wall and it frags beyond recognition. It will ALSO penetrate 12-14" in a felon along with massive fragmentation. Maybe a shotgun isn't the weapon you need for your task.

I used blue.

I would not recommend drilling a stud in personally. Why don't you like the one there?

Okay, maybe a small lesson in terminal ballistics is in order. I will include pictures, because frankly, they are pretty and I like them. ^That is your #8 heavy dove bird-shot. We are not even considering that the man might have on a leather or other thick jacket, and most certainly won't be naked, like this block of gelatin is. We can only guess at how much less it would penetrate going through a leather or heavy coat (which, if I were breaking into a house, I would wear to obscure my build). Here is some OO buckshot. Now remember, the skin on the back is = to about 4" of gelatin, and clothing worn also impairs penetration, so that "18" or whatever that OO penetrates in gel, could realistically be as little as 10-12" on a heavily clad person with some muscle-mass and a sternum. [ Now here is a GREAT! Link for you to look at before you begin to feel like 3-4" penetration on a naked block of gello is "good enough". http://www.brassfetcher.com/OJ%20gunshot%20thread.pdf Check it out. There are ribs, a sternum, and sometimes brachial and radial bones, as well as considerable muscle, in the way. Here is another post for you to read. It depicts in one post how an officer lost his life due to birdshot being in his shotgun (read the post for an explanation). http://www.theboxotruth.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=594 ^That poster hosts "Box 'O Truth" and was LE for quite some time. He has seen what different things will do to the human body. As for Clint Smith "recommending birdshot". Please, do not say things like that about Clint. Here is what someone who attended one of his classes heard him to say about it. When did you last speak with him? "Clint doesn't recommend birdshot for defense, but it is a good and cheap load for practice." - http://theboxotruth.com/docs/edu61.htm (11th block of text on page one of this link). NOW. If you still insist on using a load that has been proven time and time again to be inferior to other offerings, then I guess there is nothing I or anyone else can tell you to change your mind. I simply hope that you live out your days peacefully and never find out whether or not you are one of the lucky ones, or unlucky ones, when it comes to the birdshot working. Me? I will pick a round that is going to put them DOWN. I recommend you re-think your strategy and do the same.

I am looking to interrupt the CNS or cause a 20% blood volumn loss the fastest way I can. That obviously means birdshot and other rounds that won't reach major organs are out. I feel that #1 buck is the smallest one should go due to the possibility of heavy clothing, ect. ect.

If you did that to me and my eyes/corotid arteries escaped damage, I would tear you a new one. Number 8 shot at 90 feet is NOT going to incapacitate me. It is going to make me VERY angry though, and after you exhaust your magazine, it is going to take me VERY little time to cover those 90 feet. Birdshot just WON'T put a person down. Anyone who thinks it will, I pray they never try it. The likely result will be complete shock when their assailant goes into a killing frenzy. Before they break out of this "OMG I emplied the tube at him and hes still coming at me!" paralysis, it will be too late. Here is what happens when you shoot someone with birdshot. King, 42, was shot two or three times from a distance by birdshot fired from a shotgun late Wednesday. He then bicycled about 11/2 miles back to his home in neighboring Rialto and called police. King was hit in the face, arms, back and torso, police said. http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2007/nov/30/rodney-king-struck-by-birdshot/ All six victims, between the ages of 15 and 17, were being treated at Shands Jacksonville hospital with non-life-threatening injuries, said Ken Jefferson, a spokesman for the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office. The first shooting occurred about 2:30 p.m. when a car pulled up outside a house where four men were sitting on the porch. A single shot from a shotgun came from a vehicle and all the victims were peppered with bird shot, said Sheriff John Rutherford http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-05-01-florida-multiple-shooting_N.htm Oh yeah, here is your "30 yard shot". Just as Dick Cheney, he knows how ineffective the stuff is first-hand. A Texas Parks and Wildlife Department report said Whittington was retrieving a downed bird and stepped out of the hunting line he was sharing with Cheney. "Another covey was flushed and Cheney swung on a bird and fired, striking Whittington in the face, neck and chest at approximately 30 yards," the report said. A Texas Parks and Wildlife Department report said Whittington was retrieving a downed bird and stepped out of the hunting line he was sharing with Cheney. So...if you want to go ahead and use birdshot, be my guest, but again...I pray you never have to use it, because if you do, and your assailant is armed, "outlook not so good".

Lol, you haven't seen very many OIS reports have you? I still remember one where an officer shot some kid point blank in the chest cavity with OO Buck. Kid ran 45 yards. Coroner said the heart/lungs "were shredded". Kid was drug-free, just being stupid and pointed a weapon (don't remember if it was real or a look-alike) at the cop in his cruiser. The human body is so much tougher than you give it credit for. So much more.

I would rather be alive to smell/see it though.

You have to press the little tab by the trigger guard to get a round to the top of the carrier and THEN rack the slide. Sorry I don't know the name of the tab.

Buy the M1 Super 90 spring for "military/LE" from Brownells. That is what I am about to do. My M4 spring works well except on 3" OO buckshot and the like, where the kick and mass of the shell in the mag-tube keep it from kicking the shell out fast/hard enough to get it on top of the carrier in time to lift it before the bolt slams home. Also, click on the "ALT" button when you find the spring, it will show you a 40" WOLF spring.

I will say one thing. Every cammo benelli I have seen is dinged up. Right off the rack. It is just the nature of the finish I think. That is why MY M4 is matt-black.