Unobtanium

Since a man went to jail over a malfunctioning AR-15 when the manufacturere themselves said that the weapon was defective from the factory, I would be willing to bet that they MIGHT just use high-speed photography to prove that one barrel was one millisecond faster than the other. It is impossible for both to fire at the same EXACT! time. I wouldn't want to take a chance. The legality of stuff can be wicked. I agree though, Bubba hunting ducks or whatnot with this double-barrel is in little danger of legal action unless he REALLY ticks someone off. However, if he used it to kill someone (even protecting his life/home), the family of that someone may try to make something of it. It has happened before. I do have one more question about why you used extreme shock ammunition given this information you gave me. I will use your words: "What higher praise for Extreme Shok?"

Have not played with it that far out, but off-hand at 25 yards my M4 will clover-leaf them. Not bad considering I flinch with slugs a little bit I am sure.

Sigh* I hope this will keep anyone from listening to Splash and getting in a world of legal hurt. Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter90.txt Second paragraph, point 2. This definition SQUARLY AND COMPLETELY includes a shotgun that will fire both barrels (fires more than one shot...) without manual reloading...yep, it's a double-barrel, means 2 chambers, so no re-loading...pulled the trigger once, so that is a "single function" of the trigger. Some people cannot be saved from themselves. Carry on.

Never claimed to be "an internet genius". If anything, I have been trying to get you to see how things work in the real world when all the hype, marketing, and gello shooting is academic at best. Again as I said before, carry on.

He recommends the stock M4 spring. However, with my full length tube (not one of his, but I am sure they length is the same, to within a mm or so I guess), I use an M1 S90 Military model spring. It is 35" long and allows me to shoot 3" magnum rounds without jamming. The M4 spring allowed recoil to keep the rounds from ejecting the tube ontop of the carrier far enough in some cases. The heavier recoil + the 3" round in the tube, inertia ect. kept it from kicking out well on the last round. I know it was inertia/recoil because light 3" loads did better than heavy ones and firing a birdshot round before the last round in the mag (3") did not result in any issues.

I got mine loose with a heat gun and my hands. I have no idea why a vice or what not is necessary. I would be scared of marring/bending something. However, others found tools necessary, so take that into account. I cleaned the threads on the tube and reciever, applied a decent amount of blue locktite, and screwed it on as tight as I could get it with my hands. No issues at all other than needing an M1 S90 Military style spring (35") for reliable cycling of hard recoiling 3" stuff.

I use CLP and I live in the south. To me oil is a rust preventative. What NEEDS oiling? A light film on the mag spring to prevent rust, a light film on the recoil spring for same. A light film on the bolt base and a SLIGHT amount of RIG + P grease on the cam-pin. Also, some lube of some sort on the inside of the upper where the carrier cycles. Maybe a film of oil on the springs on the FCG to prevent rust and a bit of lube on the moving parts on the FCG to smooth the trigger pull. The total amount of necessary oil involved for all the above operations, provided you do not spill any and apply it somehow with magic precision, would be about 1/4-1/2 of a thimble full.

Any weapon that fires more than 1 round with 1 pull of the trigger is considered by the BATF to be a machinegun. Ghey, I know, but the law is the law and excuses won't get your out of jail.

If you are questioning component flex due to under 1# of weight altering your POI on a shotgun, I would not worry about it. Even with a Tru-Ball slug you are looking at around a 4MOA weapon. Try it and see.

Inquiring minds want to know...

You described the legal definition of a machinegun.

At 40 yards with my stock MOD choke, Remington 000 Buck will put 7-9 out of 10 consistantly within a 12-14" circle at 25 yards, and about 3-4 in a 12-14" circle at 40 yards. It loves the OOO.

Your price is inaccurate. It will cost you up to 100K and or 20 years in a federal prison as well IIRC (not sure on the 100K, sure on the 20). NO, I did not see where it was in-out on the deer with the 22-250. Did it fail to expand or something? That is pretty special. If it did expand, well, stanger things have happened, isolated case study.

Try #1 buck in a 3" shell (patterning doesn't matter across a room imho).

Ahhh...NOW you are starting to see what I am talking about. The reason your friend's deer ran that far I am betting is because he used a varmint round that did not achieve deep enough penetration. It blew up in the first shoulder/lung. Your brother's deer got punched through and through and many vital structures were severely compromised. This is a perfect example of why Extreme Shock is not good stuff. It will not penetrate deep enough to cause catastrophic failure of deeper organs. Also, 2x6's are not a good measure really of bullet destruction. I would recommend that if you (and you seem to be) are the type of person who HAS TO SEE IT FIRST HAND, that you get some newspaper and soak it for 24 hours in a large bundle (say 10-15" thick, yes it will be heavy, do it in a plastic tub from wal-mart, $4). THen let the water drain off. THis will give you a good idea of bullet expansion and penetration relative to another bullet. You want to get more realistic? Drape an old jacket/some jeans/whatever over the front of the paper before you shoot it to simulate clothing and how the HP will plug/or not plug. The WWB Personal Protection 147gr JHP's are just a re-packaged Silver Tip. It isn't BAD ammo, but it is bottom of the chain. Good for practice, but I would go wiht something better for when the SHTF. THe 180gr XTP in .357 is a great round for hunting and whatnot, but it is not a huge expander (1.5x caliber usually) and is more designed to penetrate than something like a Gold Dot or HST. Since over penetration is a concern for you, I would test an XTP and then test a Gold Dot in the news-paper media I described to you, then pick the one you like best. Try your extreme shock, post some pictures, I want to see what it does to news-paper media, it wil lbe informative for all of us. (I predict a large, shallow cavity).

Meh, they look mall-ninja to me, but that doesn't mean I don't think they look cool! Shame they don't function, that with a surefire FG would rock!

Nah, it is just fine. Look at a 1911. Those have a lot of steel slamming around, and look further at the M16, a full-auto weapon with a steel carrier in an anodized aluminum upper flying around at 6-900rpm. It's just fine.

Inertia guns do not necessarily fire faster. Currently the Winchester/FN system is the fastest IIRC. The INertia system kicks harder and is more load sensetive, but is also simpler, more durable, and MUCH cleaner (unless we are talking about the ARGO system, which is pretty dang clean). Inertia is more sensetive to the way you hold the gun as well. Hold the buttstock of a benelli inertia gun against a wall and fire it, and it will not cycle.

+1 on your thoughts. Pulling the trigger is A LAST RESORT! That is why I am so dead-set on making sure that when (hopefully never) I pull that trigger, the effect is as predictable and as devestating as possible. For a 9mm, I would look into some Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Ranger T +P+ 127gr. There are LOTS of good choices. This is not the 80's anymore and the 9mm is a very viable round. NYPD has had VERY good results using 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots. Usually they get an entrance and an exit and the bullet is found expanded and trapped in the perp's clothing when they undress the body at the morgue. Personally, I prefer the 124gr +P Speer GD in 9mm. IT is a VERY reliable expander, penetrates well, and is a bonded bullet, meaning there is no way you will get a jacket/core separation. That is not to say that there are not other great rounds out there, it's just the one I prefer. I would caution against Hornady XTP though, they are more designed for penetration than expansion. They work well, but imho the bullet is out-dated when compared to the newer HST (Which actually came out in 01 or 02, but sucked until about 06 when it was re-tweaked effectively by Federal.) If you just HAVE to have an "exotic" round, check out Corbon DPX. It is kindof a new kid on the block, but the results are very promising. NOt much real-world data yet though.

Evan Marshall tested it. His finding was that it underpenetrated greatly and does not recommend it. www.stoppingpower.net DO a search for it here.

It is for less recoil so you can get a faster follow-up. Energy is a false god. YOu are really looking for largest wound-channel that reaches 12" of depth. THAT is the holy grail.

Hrmmm, I got 2 of those springs, one was 39" and one was 35" on the nose. The 39" quickly went to 35" after being installed and removed. Try using another brand of shell. Some are longer than others. My stock M4 spring fit just fine, and it ran fine, until I run 3" buckshot, then the recoil prevents the spring from properly ejecting a shell on top of the carrier fully.

+1 When I had my P226 Elite I would POUR ammo through the thing. When I got a Les Baer TRS in .45acp, ammo was more costly. I never felt under-gunned with 124gr +P Gold Dots. Now I just keep my M4 by the bed, and it doesn't matter what OO it is loaded with, any load within my appartment will pattern well enough.

I agree on that one! However, even with good shot placement, things can and do go wrong. Take the death of Officer Coates. That is a perfect example of when an officer does everything right and it all goes wrong. I am not going to waste time telling the story, but here is a link. It would be wise to use his death as a lesson on underpenetration. http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-trooper-mark-hunter-coates Not listed in the article is the fact that none of the rounds penetrated deep enough to disable major structures within the body. He was using 145gr JHP's (Winchester SIlvertips, a round famous for underpenetration, oddly enough the same round that failed in the Miami shootout, albeit in 9mm). and all of them expanded/fragmented prematurely. Hence again why I am a fan of heavy/slow over fast/light. Here is an article to read about WHY officer Coates rounds were ineffective, and further dispelling all this "energy dump" BS. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

Actually, the .357 magnum uses a .357" dia. projectile when loading jacketed ammo, and .358 dia for lead projectiles.