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Guest cleefurd

Black Benelli M4 Hybrid Bolt Knob

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I never even remotely hinted he stole money from me. As a steady observer of these issues you know better than to post that. My complaint with him wasn't even about these delays. It was about direct lies saying he had already shipped me something when later it was proven he had not. And the belt fed BS excuses as to why his lying was justified.

 

You do make a very interesting point though. You say what Kip does is a HOBBY. First I've ever heard that. Seems like even you guys are now trying to rationalize this weirdness. Okay. So those that constantly post queries as to shipping and product availability now understand it's really not an enterprise that's run like a BUSINESS so adjust your expectations accordingly. Wish this was the first multi-month long thread about availability, but they've been almost non-stop for three years. Pick your item. So here we are two months into this one where shipping was supposed to start "next week" and nothing. Yep, quite a hobby.

 

Geissele selling hammers direct and FFT and others offer a good selection of parts. I remind posters that there are BUSINESS alternatives for your M4 needs.

 

BigHat, do you honestly think that a man buys a digitally controlled machine to temper A2 steel with boring precision to make a few hundred bolt-handles for a shotgun that appeals to a niche market and then rolls them out over the span of a year? What ELSE could you call what Kip does for us BUT a hobby? It's certainly not what keeps food on his table. I have said this before, and I will say it again. Kip does things that are NOT hobby related for people that he is never going to discuss on this or any other forum. Check things out, BigHat. Look at the undercurrents, here. Looking at all of the things Kip has done with the M4/M1014 platform, did it dawn on you that the man seems very connected to a lot of people in this industry? No, the M4/M1014 is one of his hobbies, his passions. It's a labor of love that we benefit from. He builds things that we request of him. Yes, he is compensated for them, but I doubt that all of his sales together to-date for the M4/M1014 are enough to pay for the hardware that he has bought to machine or heat-treat, etc. those parts with. Further, a man does not amass the money or credit required to buy machines like that by not making money.

 

All I am saying is that Kip does have a job, but this is a passion, and a labor of love. Not an economic powerhouse.

 

As to his shipping, please elaborate, BigHat. Are you talking about the automated e-mail, or the automated billing of your card which is stated as matter of fact regardless of shipping status? Can you direct me to that original thread?

 

Yes, FFT is an alternative, but Kip's Ti tube is stouter, and his bolt-handles are lighter even though they include an A2 tempered steel tang. His products are technically superior, and I choose to purchase them for that reason.

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All of this can be summed up rather succinctly with:

 

Kip's products can be technically shown to have no peer in a similar item.

Kip's R&D and time-to-market is long.

Kip's delivery estimates are definitely not to be bet on.

Kip always delivers.

If you don't have patience, don't worry with owning the best unless you can find someone selling a used item from Kip, because you won't find products equal to his, and you likely won't get his products from him shipped "next-day", or even "next-month". Like Kip says, "Premium paint takes the longest to dry."

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You have a PM on the shipping question. It's been posted here before.

 

The basic issue remains despite your spirited defense of him. Regardless of competing projects, long R&D times and all your creative excuses on his behalf, why can't he simply execute on the timelines he sets himself? He's never responsible for failing to deliver, it's always someone else's fault or unforeseen misfortune on his part.

He generates his own problems around here. All of your posts of late are an entirely new approach at trying to explain why his crappy customer service is okay. It's not okay with me.

 

For all the johnny come lately types that feel compelled to defend Kip -- be my guest. But maybe you could also STFU up with your constant posts asking where the heck your Kip stuff is or when it's going to ship? No one knows, it's a total mystery and the last thing you should rely on is what Kip tells you.

Edited by BigHat

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OK, ok, so enough with arguing about Kip.

 

Where can I get one of these bolt handles?????

 

Just a web link, to a place where they are in stock and available to be shipped, immediately please.

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OK, ok, so enough with arguing about Kip.

 

Where can I get one of these bolt handles?????

 

Just a web link, to a place where they are in stock and available to be shipped, immediately please.

 

Such does not exist yet. You will have to wait till Kip gives the green light. Less one of us who has acquired one already chooses to sell theirs, that link you have is your only source.

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You have a PM on the shipping question. It's been posted here before.

 

The basic issue remains despite your spirited defense of him. Regardless of competing projects, long R&D times and all your creative excuses on his behalf, why can't he simply execute on the timelines he sets himself? He's never responsible for failing to deliver, it's always someone else's fault or unforeseen misfortune on his part.

He generates his own problems around here. All of your posts of late are an entirely new approach at trying to explain why his crappy customer service is okay. It's not okay with me.

 

For all the johnny come lately types that feel compelled to defend Kip -- be my guest. But maybe you could also STFU up with your constant posts asking where the heck your Kip stuff is or when it's going to ship? No one knows, it's a total mystery and the last thing you should rely on is what Kip tells you.

 

PM received and responded to, BigHat. All I can say is your experience detailed has not been mine. Yes, I have been told that he PLANS TO mail something in a week or so and it ends up being longer, but I have always gotten the item exactly as described, when it does arrive. I suppose that is what matters to me, since I know to expect things to take a while. Since he has NEVER failed to deliver, I never bothered with bothering about things, understanding that yes, it takes a while sometimes.

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Such does not exist yet. You will have to wait till Kip gives the green light. Less one of us who has acquired one already chooses to sell theirs, that link you have is your only source.

 

This is correct.

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....Geissele selling hammers direct... I remind posters that there are BUSINESS alternatives for your M4 needs.

Geissele hasn't sold hammers direct for over 3 months now, despite their assurances to the contrary. Does that make them liars? **** no it doesn't, but Kip understands perfectly and apologizes on their behalf, knowing full well the best laid plans of mice and men.

I know Kip personally. He works like an animal, and would win a bet that he could dig a foxhole faster than any man alive. But if you asked him to dig it for YOU, he'd probably take twice as long, not to spite you, but rather to make damn sure you couldn't complain about your accomodations. Most men appreciate that, but I digress. Big Hat, you're not like most men. It would appear by your repeated edits of your posts, you delight and obsess about belittling anyone with a disperate view.

It use to be annoying, but as the years pass, and you repeatedly roll in your own feces, the ire we once felt is giving way to pity. This is your hobby now. Take a look back. Could we all be wrong and only you are right? It has become your dream, a life long quest, to trample a man who never short changed anyone here. Bravo.

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Geissele hasn't sold hammers direct for over 3 months now, despite their assurances to the contrary. Does that make them liars? **** no it doesn't, but Kip understands perfectly and apologizes on their behalf, knowing full well the best laid plans of mice and men.

I know Kip personally. He works like an animal, and would win a bet that he could dig a foxhole faster than any man alive. But if you asked him to dig it for YOU, he'd probably take twice as long, not to spite you, but rather to make damn sure you couldn't complain about your accomodations. Most men appreciate that, but I digress. Big Hat, you're not like most men. It would appear by your repeated edits of your posts, you delight and obsess about belittling anyone with a disperate view.

It use to be annoying, but as the years pass, and you repeatedly roll in your own feces, the ire we once felt is giving way to pity. This is your hobby now. Take a look back. Could we all be wrong and only you are right? It has become your dream, a life long quest, to trample a man who never short changed anyone here. Bravo.

 

 

You're delusional.

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WOW, this thread is getting really charged for no reason. I don't have a dog in this fight but from what I see BigHat is just saying that Kip should not have made a commitment to place a product for sale and excite the herd if he could not deliver. If anyone else did this it would be the kiss of death. I have seen many of you bash companies like Botach for taking a week or two to deliver a purchased item. Don't get me wrong I think Kips products are top shelf and yes, he is a great guy. But posting that his product would be out in a week on 5-23-2012 and then not posting an update is not good business practice, plain and simple. (If he did post an update I did not see it and I apologize for the error.) I hardly believe that anyone here would do this at their job and not expect some sort of fallout. Would you promise something to a boss or customer, give a week time frame, not deliver, and then not talk to them for 2 months? Even I can see where this might rub someone the wrong way. As a former small business owner I can tell you things happen that are out of your control. But, customers don’t care, period. It’s your job as the owner to keep your customer posted and updated if something happens. That is if you want to keep your customers. I personally will wait on Kips product. I, like some of you, think it's worth the wait. But flaming someone for having a different opinion is really crappy. Especially when it’s true that Kip made a poor business decision. I think we can all agree that we Benelli fans expect the best. That is why we choose Benelli to start with. I really believe that waiting on the new charging handle will pay off in the end. I am not taking up for Kip. He is a man and can do this on his own and the quality of his products speak for themselves. Some things are worth paying for in time and money. But next time keep us posted, please.

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AAC did it.

Surefire does it.

Vltor does it.

 

Plenty of companies do it. It happens when Engineering/production and Marketing have a disconnect. In Kip's case, he is both, so when it happens to him, it's when life gets in the way, or unexpected things occur.

 

Is it the best? No. I have long since maintained that Kip should just not tell anyone about things until he has enough in-stock to satisfy the demand anticipated. However, like I said before, it's his hobby, and he's excited about it, and so he keeps everyone appraised of it. Sometimes he jumps the gun.

 

Look at it this way, you wouldn't have the thing any sooner if he DIDN'T tell you it was coming down the pipe, would you?

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BigHat, you had your chance to say your piece in open forum, and you didn't take it. Kip even offered you free product because he stepped out of line creating a thread that poked back at you for previous behavior toward him. In the end, you refused to post openly what allegedly occurred, only alluding to it. It seems more like you were into drama than into actually making a real grievance known. When Kip stated that you wouldn't even tell HIM what happened, you remained silent. Now you want to whine some more? Give it a break. You had your chance to put whatever you claim happened to bed, and did not. Now you want to resurrect it? What for?

 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php/22436-BigHat-has-not-made-any-friends-yet/page4

Edited by Unobtanium

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The argument on this thread should have ended a long time ago, there is no new information being added to this discussion. I've been lurking these forums for a year + and taking in information from pretty much every post and reading everyone's reviews of different items. There are plenty of people who have both good and bad things to say about Kip. You say that it's "fanboys" defending him, but what else do you expect people to do when they've had nothing but good experiences with him and his products? Just let you badmouth someone they want to keep working on his projects until he feels so dejected that he quits? You had a bad experience, leave it at that. If you want to warn people give them a factual warning of what happened with you, but your posts are emotionally charged and directed at Kip's integrity. People will defend him because they like his products and want him to keep making them. I'm truly sorry you had a bad experience with Kip... really I am. But not everyone has, and there is no reason for you to continually bash his integrity and then call other posters names when they disagree with you.

 

Base your arguments off facts and logic, not emotion and ad hominem.

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PM received and responded to, BigHat.

 

BigHat, you had your chance to say your piece in open forum, and you didn't take it.....

Wow Unobtanium! Now your very own personally signed "PM" prequel too.

In post #56 he claims he had openly shared. Upon review.... he has ONLY offered to disclose his version of the grievance via PM. Several of us fell for it... or had it forced into our inbox. Problem with this was his "private" disclosures have tended to vary. Surely he knows we compare notes. Did he tell you he was a senior SNCO or a full bird Colonel this time? Wait, he can claim we are delusional if our accounts of what he said don't match. Convenient eh?

 

Rhane71 nailed it though, expressing our exact grievance, while sparing the malice. Kip seems to have gotten better at keeping "mum", but still walks right into Big Hat's firing squad from time to time. He's learning :). His staff does appear to respond to inquiries via email, which is exactly how they should be addressed. Updating us here use to be the norm, but then he lays his own trap, when he could be working.

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My salient point that the fan boys fail to understand or chose to ignore is that he sets his own expectations for people here and has for years and then immediately fails to deliver on them. AND then those that haven't experienced it for themselves wonder WTF is up.

It's been so long I assumed there was a record as to the first issue I had with Kip. It'd really no longer germane, but here it is for you that feel I'm hiding something. I wouldn't have shared with Uno with a expectation of keeping it a secret. Many of you have probably already seen it. In a nut shell I was awaiting a tube, my first purchase. I called to ask about the status. Kip said it was going to ship it in a few days. It was approx 10 days later and no tube. I reached him by phone looking for some tracking info. He said he did not ship it as planned but had shipped it the day prior to my call. Okay, no big deal. We were all waiting for awhile back then and as it was commonly known delays were occurring. Too humid to paint them, key employee(s) just quit, working nights, medical issues, family issues, etc so I had no complaints. Actually thought I might of had it lost in the mail when I called him. Well, when my tube arrives approx 10 days later I note the postmark isn't the day prior I as I was told, it actually was posted about 7 days after the phone call. So yes, it wasn't the wait, it wasn' the quality of the part, it was that he was on the phone telling me the tube had shipped and it wouldn't for 7 days. For those of you blaming the USPS, I don't buy an 8 day delay in getting it properly postmarked. If he had said he would ship it in another 7 days I would have been fine with it, so why did he lie?

For those wondering about the USMC connection. During this period of one excuse after another people began giving him a break on the delays because he's a vet. As a Marine, that really pisses me off. If there's one thing that will create giant problems for you in the Corps is saying you'll do something and failing do to it. Of course, I have seen my share of **** birds in over 26 years of service (Full Colonel) and their behavior is nearly identical to Kip's. Always a new excuse, always someone's else's fault for failing to get the job done. Having been a party to a direct lie, I knew his integrity was in question. Personally, I don't think he conducted himself with honor.

 

But that's all water under the bridge. What prompted me to post in this thread after seeing it run for two months is that he continues to say he's going to do something and he fails to do it. The fan boy response is that 1) he's busy, 2) it doesn't matter because his parts are the best, 3) he's a good guy don't call attention to anything adverse that he does. He digs a fast foxhole (That's germane how?) 4) it's really a hobby for him so don't consider it a business.

Pick any or all of these excuses, but to me they don't mitigate the basic point. When he says he's going to do something some people actually believe him. Certainly not a contract, but viewed as a promise/obligation/expectation by some and people actually think he means it.

So the personal bone to pick with him some of you think I remain fixated on has long since passed and had nothing to do with weighing in here, but since you asked what it was...

This thread is just another example of a failure to do what he himself said he would do. People seeing this for the first time probably deserve to know it's not the first time. If the delays are immaterial to you, if you want his parts no matter what, then I say what I've always said -- it's your money. Just don't think you're dealing with a normal business man because you are not. And that's all there was to it.

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My salient point that the fan boys fail to understand or chose to ignore is that he sets his own expectations for people here and has for years and then immediately fails to deliver on them. AND then those that haven't experienced it for themselves wonder WTF is up.

It's been so long I assumed there was a record as to the first issue I had with Kip. It'd really no longer germane, but here it is for you that feel I'm hiding something. I wouldn't have shared with Uno with a expectation of keeping it a secret. Many of you have probably already seen it. In a nut shell I was awaiting a tube, my first purchase. I called to ask about the status. Kip said it was going to ship it in a few days. It was approx 10 days later and no tube. I reached him by phone looking for some tracking info. He said he did not ship it as planned but had shipped it the day prior to my call. Okay, no big deal. We were all waiting for awhile back then and as it was commonly known delays were occurring. Too humid to paint them, key employee(s) just quit, working nights, medical issues, family issues, etc so I had no complaints. Actually thought I might of had it lost in the mail when I called him. Well, when my tube arrives approx 10 days later I note the postmark isn't the day prior I as I was told, it actually was posted about 7 days after the phone call. So yes, it wasn't the wait, it wasn' the quality of the part, it was that he was on the phone telling me the tube had shipped and it wouldn't for 7 days. For those of you blaming the USPS, I don't buy an 8 day delay in getting it properly postmarked. If he had said he would ship it in another 7 days I would have been fine with it, so why did he lie?

For those wondering about the USMC connection. During this period of one excuse after another people began giving him a break on the delays because he's a vet. As a Marine, that really pisses me off. If there's one thing that will create giant problems for you in the Corps is saying you'll do something and failing do to it. Of course, I have seen my share of **** birds in over 26 years of service (Full Colonel) and their behavior is nearly identical to Kip's. Always a new excuse, always someone's else's fault for failing to get the job done. Having been a party to a direct lie, I knew his integrity was in question. Personally, I don't think he conducted himself with honor.

 

But that's all water under the bridge. What prompted me to post in this thread after seeing it run for two months is that he continues to say he's going to do something and he fails to do it. The fan boy response is that 1) he's busy, 2) it doesn't matter because his parts are the best, 3) he's a good guy don't call attention to anything adverse that he does. He digs a fast foxhole (That's germane how?) 4) it's really a hobby for him so don't consider it a business.

Pick any or all of these excuses, but to me they don't mitigate the basic point. When he says he's going to do something some people actually believe him. Certainly not a contract, but viewed as a promise/obligation/expectation by some and people actually think he means it.

So the personal bone to pick with him some of you think I remain fixated on has long since passed and had nothing to do with weighing in here, but since you asked what it was...

This thread is just another example of a failure to do what he himself said he would do. People seeing this for the first time probably deserve to know it's not the first time. If the delays are immaterial to you, if you want his parts no matter what, then I say what I've always said -- it's your money. Just don't think you're dealing with a normal business man because you are not. And that's all there was to it.

 

None of those 3 PM's you sent me made it past my inbox, BigHat. Just an FYI. Nor did I discuss them with anyone except in this thread where you can see it.

 

Now, as to your issue with Kip. You say he misled you by claiming to have shipped it sooner than he really did. BigHat, is it possible that Kip was shipping more than 1 item that week, and that maybe he thought he had shipped yours, but had not? You go to the post-office with half a dozen or a dozen or whatever of the day's mag-tubes, ship them, wash-rinse-repeat over the next few days, and I am sure you can see how a human being might get confused as to who they had shipped to and on what day. He was off by a few days, and you have held a grudge for YEARS over it. I can understand if you didn't get "in on that batch", and it was another 6 weeks or something, but it was just a few days and well within the "Sorry, I'm human" realm of understanding.

 

Also, BigHat, I am not going to excuse USPS, either, because I have "shipped" something to someone only to get very angry and childish e-mails from them 1.5 weeks later. A tracer was put on the package and do you know where it was? At the same damn place I left it. The post-office in MY town. I was livid at USPS, because I had drop-shipped that person a 100% new item direct from the manufacturer at MY cost to calm their whiny arse down. They then took THAT item, and hte one I sent, and "picked the best one" (as they both arrived within a day of each other, ironically). They sent me back the one that they managed to put a scratch on, screw me. (No, it wasn't BigHat or anyone on this forum, for anyone thinking this is some kind of back-handed jab at someone).

 

I have had things from USPS take over a month to arrive in the CONUS. I am talking simple envelopes. Duggan mailed me a check for a Malkoff module once. It took 31 days to reach me. We both live CONUS, and not on opposite sides, either.

 

Am I saying it was USPS? No. I'm not saying it wasn't, either, though. I am saying that as you and everyone else knows, Kip will mail several tubes a day for a week or two when finishing up a batch. So he told you wrong on the day he shipped yours, thinking yours was in that bundle. I'm sorry, but you're going to go on and on about this for OVER A YEAR? Over a minor mistake that added a hair over a week to the delivery time, including 1 weekend?

 

BigHat, why not go after someone else? Like Surefire, or AAC, or someone else? I'll tell you why you don't. Everyone would laugh at you. It's well known that companies producing this kind of stuff have set-backs and cancel projects all the time. That's why the term "Vaporware" exists. Setbacks and delays are NOTHING SPECIAL in this industry. Yeah, it's annoying as ****, I grant that freely, but it's not like Kip is somehow an industry aberration. The only thing aberrant about him is how responsive he is to the requests of his customers. Fully over half of the items he is selling are a DIRECT result of input from THIS forum, and mainly from less than a dozen people on this forum.

 

You can complain all you want about how "slow" he is to market things, but he was the first to market with a Ti handle to replace the one Design Concepts made. He was the first to market with a Ti tube, and still makes the sturdiest one. He is the ONLY one to market with a correct 1913 rail. When he determined that he did not want to under-take the hammer himself, he got quite possibly one of the best FCG component manufacturers in the world--geissele--to bring it to market. It was the first of its kind to market. I'm sorry, but your assertion that he is somehow "worse" than other companies about promising without delivery just doesn't stand up when you look at his track record.

 

You obviously want to deal more with a business man than an engineer. I suggest you do that, and in turn, you will sacrifice quality for speed of delivery and a more efficient business model. It's give/take, and right now, there is noone in this industry that makes these parts that combines the two, in my opinion.

Edited by Unobtanium

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Is there a moderator on this forum? And if so, can he please delete this topic and prevent future topics like this from devolving into an attack on Kip or any other individual? Or, please start a new topic devoted to arguing about Kip.

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Looking past the white noise, once again Kip said he'd build something.

Chupacabra it ain't, members here have recent pictures.

He also said he will list them... my bet is he will. Sure it is tedious lamenting his lack of corporate efficiency, but nothing here has convinced me to shun him.

He's human, loves building what WE want, and always comes through.

What's not to love?

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Guest cleefurd

Planned to have these listed weeks ago.

Our Haas TM-1 low voltage (5, 12, 24V) power supply developed an error, going into over-temp protection mode. Had this not occured, the few hours generally required to finish the bolt knob tangs, would not have taken weeks awaiting machine repair.

 

I offer the following as a tongue in cheek appraisal of the delay;

I own that machine, and in hind sight I should have built my own power supply, and temperature sensors. It's my fault when electronics fail. More over I should have published the nature of the delay, and taken my lashes for alluding to machinery failure.

 

On a serious note, what happened between myself and Big Hat over 3 years ago has helped us improve our shipping records, communication between myself and the shipping area, and clarity of merchant shipping notifications. I screwed up many aspects of this business, and have always tried to make improvements when the unavoidable snafu crept in. Our small staff is becoming more specialized at their respective delegated assignments. However, we will appear to suck at this while our business matures. I am soley accountable for terrible ETA planning. Everything takes longer than expected. I hate that. The universally held remedy is to cut corners as the deadline looms large. I would rather not, and accept my punishment for appearing amateurish in the process.

 

"yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir"

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Kip,

 

Do you have a rough ETA? Like within a week or are will still talking months?

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Somebody should shut the thread down.

Does this forum have a moderator, or not?

 

 

Why would they?

Beyond the typical internet white noise, there is an emerging Benelli friendly component people are curious about.

Eliminating the thread over someone trying to poison the well would be a shame. Like you said earlier, let haters have a different place (or thread) to vent, those threads ARE usually removed, so trolls usually gravitate back to valid threads to feed their psyche. Parasitic maybe, but I see past it.

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