Shell stop mods

[Sigfla]

Ok after having read through a lot of threads on how to make this gun easier to load it seems the safest consensus is to bend the latch and polish. I have no problem with the polish part but I am hesitant to bend without an extra shell stop lying around in case I screw it up too badly. PLUS I am not too enamored of the idea of reducing the purchase of the latch on the shell rim. It occurred to me another option might be to cut shallow slits into the shell latch face reducing the overall surface area grabbing the rim but not affecting the geometry any. The latch would thus look like the tines of a fork smushing the shell into the magazine tube for lack of a better description. It seems like 2-3 small slits or even one larger one in the middle might do the trick along with a bit of a polish. I also thought about polishing the contact area between the shell stop and the cartridge drop lever but without the gun in front of me I am not sure if that works with the mechanical action of the gun. I think the drop lever pushes against the shell stop causing it to grab the shell harder while loading. It releases while firing and the shell stop spring pushes it out of the way of the case rim. Giving those 2 surfaces a bit of a polish might take some tension off if only a tiny bit. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on trying this vs the bending or notch cutting suggestions? Once spares are in stock I might give it a try b/c mine is a real bitch to load. I have to shove rounds in with my thumb hard and they make an audible click when inserted. You simply cannot baby this gun in any way. It likes being treated rough, lol.   

[Sigfla]

Just saw FFT has the shell stop in stock. I ordered one. If anyone has any strong opinions on my theory let me know before I start cutting slits, lol! 

[Sigfla]

Found this as well.

 Great video explaining the best way to grind and polish. I may end up doing 2 relief cuts on either side of the centerline of the case rim as it contacts the shell stop. Hopefully that retains the hold but allows the centerline a bit more bend or flex to allow the shell to load easier. I'll have to see how much room there is since the latch doesn't grip dead center of the shell (at least on the Versamax). I know Benelli wanted max reliability and life for that part. If it goes down your gun will likely double but it seems a more reasonable middle ground could have been designed. Shotguns eat and eat so loading easier should be an essential element of the design. Maybe the aftermarket will come up with a drop in solution that works. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Sigfla

[Sigfla]

Another idea I had was to polish and possibly take down the edges of the shell stop slightly so it had more room to pivot. Taking down the edge circled in yellow should give the stop more room to pivot into the receiver and clear the case rim. The area circled in red and the corresponding pivot point marked by the arrow is the most interesting area to me. It seems Benelli placed the roll pin forward of the pivot point for a reason. I wonder if moving the pivot point more back towards the blue line would maintain the depth of the latch on the case rim but reduce some tension. By shifting it back you would be pushing down on it further out and in theory have more leverage to move it out of the way. I know thats not what actually bends but the pin placement and pivot point must serve a purpose. I dunno though I am certainly no engineer and I know others have looked at this longer than I have. 

[StrangerDanger]

Be very careful with how much you remove from the face of the shell stop. Too much and the shotgun won't function safely or could cause random jams. My preferred method is the scalop cut on the face of the latch. You have to leave the corners of the latch intact or you may experience issues where the shell ejects too soon during cycling. Or the shotgun may drop shells onto the carrier if dropped hard.

You can polish until your heart is content. Realize you will be removing the phosphate finish so you may have some surface rusting issues afterwards. I would not try to relocate the pin. It would drive the face of the latch too far forward and the tail piece that intersects with the trigger pack would also be affected. Plus your button would no longer align with the receiver hole. The red areas shown can be polished, but it probably won't do much. The part isn't facing much resistance there.

[Sigfla]

Wasn't considering moving the pin actually. It was more of a re-profile of the pivot point peak marked by the arrow. I wouldn't attempt it anyhow as messing with the geometry too much is out of my realm. 

I looked my gun over today and I think I am going to polish, then cut a single relief slit just above the contact point of the case rim on the latch. I noticed it was mostly one side of my latch that was contacting the case rim. I thought if I cut a slit between the contact point and the opposing edge (just above the scallop cut you referenced/my red circled area) it might allow the latch to bend more easily while still retaining full contact of the case.  

If I look at my shell stop from the carrier side it appears the portion circled in red is where the latch contacts the case rim. If I cut along the blue line I think that will provide relief for the latch to bend more only where it contacts the case rim. I dunno why Benelli doesn't attempt reprofile the shell stop somehow to make loading easier. It seems even if they just decreased the angle the shell pushes along somehow rather than that sharp ramp to get past the latch that everyone scallop cuts it would make for less resistance while pushing the shell in. I dunno I know I am thinking out loud a bit but there has to be a better solution that bending, cutting, or otherwise reducing the case rim contact. 

 

[Birdog19]

Was playing with my gun the other day and noticed the bolt release button was loose.  What?!  This was the OEM release lever that I drilled and tapped for a bolt release pad.  For some reason that process didn't go very well, probably the wrong tap. So bought a Redneck Tactical bolt release tab and pressed-on for several + years.  You'll notice I polished the heck out of it as well.  Polished it in places that didn't need to be polished!  I also recently did a little bending adjustment for easier loading.  Probably went something like this:  Not enough, still not enough, oh too much, back the other way, a little more ahh just right. 

So here is what I think happened:

• Possibly weakened the bolt release button fitment during the drill and tap process.
• Polished off too way too much material on the flange of the button where it's pressed into the lever.
• Weakened everything by bending it back and forth a bit as noted in the video above.

Luckily I had a GG&G shell stop as a spare and swapped it out.  Other than a little polishing, I don't think I'm gonna mess with it!

My stupidity is your gain!?

[CobraBG]

Good learning comment from your experience. I have the same GG&G installed and it works well. I'm not going to mess with it.

[Sigfla]

I ordered a G&G originally but cancelled after they emailed that it was gonna take a while. My OEM stop is gonna be left alone and I will experiment with the spare from FFT. In the end I hope to accomplish an easier to load shell catch but still retain full contact on the shell itself. If it doesn’t work I am out the cost of the spare and I’ll decide if the tried and true method is worth doing to my OEM latch. Ideally I want something less than stock and not as radical as the 3 gunners. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Sigfla

[NoTycoon]

I've said this on other posts; the catch is designed to bend where the indents have been cut.  By simply widening the indents, the spring weight is lowered and the shells feed easier. In the photo below, you can see how much I remove.  You don't want to cut any deeper, just wider.

[D'zaster]

I will be giving this a try. Seems nuts to me how much pressure needs to be applied to load the mag.....

[Sigfla]

Ok so gunsmithing COVID 2020 project # 50 complete. I received my shell stop today. I chickened out on the cuts I suggested above. If I had more time I might have test fit it before I started cutting. I should have done it at night when the wife and kids aren't on my ass. I cut 2 small angle cuts into the shell stop at the notches where you see the white lines. They were very shallow and I took barely any metal off really. I then polished the face of the shell stop and put a little extra pressure on the area most guys scallop cut theirs. I figured I would test fit from there and cut more if needed. I really hate taking my gun down and messing with roll pins. Its a super pain in the butt unless I am alone and in a quiet area. 

Anyway once I reinstalled the new modded part viola!! My M4 now loads as easily as my 870 and 590A1. I don't know if the new part had less bend in it or if my mods helped that much. It did seem to stick out less from the receiver channel. I did a quick bang test on the floor with the stock and no shells broke free and my contact area seems more than sufficient on the case rim. Firing will tell the tale however. In any case I highly recommend the mod b/c the M4 shell stop being so stiff is one of the guns rare weak points. Benelli or the aftermarket really needs to address this somehow. Give us an easier to load gun and a better full stock option (just less LOP on the non collapsing models would work). I am a big guy with long arms and it was ok for me but I stiff prefer the LOP of the Mesa. If i was buying again I would get the collapsable model instead. 

Not Benelli related but the next project is freshening up some parts on my 590A1 PD trade in SBS, converting to a ESS card side saddle (had an ugly old Tacstar), new FP, new ejector, new sling, new extractors with new springs, and finally a new Magpul SGA.  Only problem with a PD gun is it is either beat to hell or barely used. You can't tell which b/c they are all treated like crap on the outside. I have had it for a million years and only now had the interest to shoot it and get it setup. Going to take a defensive shotgun class in June. 

[Birdog19]

I was shooting skeet with a few friends this past weekend and I had a crazy malfunction with my M4 after 4 shots.  The spring that puts tension on the shell stop lever had rotated 90 degrees and was wedged between the lever and the channel in the receiver that houses the lever.  In other words, it was parallel to the shell stop instead of perpendicular.  Everything was jammed up which required a removal of the lever just to remove the bolt and trigger housing.  Luckily I had everything I needed to do the job at the range on a picnic table.  I had the gun back up and running within a half hour.

So how did the spring manage to rotate 90 degrees?!  I had replaced the lever with a brand new and unmodified GG&G part a week or so ago and I believe I used the OEM spring instead of the one that came with GG&G.  While I've had the lever out of the gun many times and am used to the job, the only thing I can think of is that I placed the spring in the wrong position during reassembly.  I did a lot of dry loading and manual of arms after installing the new lever with no issues.   Yet, after 4 rounds of birdshot it slipped 90 degrees and lodged behind the shell stop.

WTFO?!  Any ideas?

Seems like everytime I'm posting here it is a PSA about what NOT to do instead of great advice!  ?

[NoTycoon]

1 hour ago, Birdog19 said:

Seems like everytime I'm posting here it is a PSA about what NOT to do instead of great advice!  ?

We are all happy to learn from your mistakes.?

Actually, I had the same thing happen years ago.  I suspect that the spring was installed on a slant and/or too close to the pivot pin. When I had done mine, I did not know where to put to spring on reassembly. I looked it up after that.

[CobraBG]

What not to do is just as important as good advice, in fact it is good advice. 

[Evolution]

Never done the job myself and don't plan to. Maybe you did make an error installing the spring causing it to slip.

Curious, why have you been removing and installing the latch many times? Seems to me that, that in itself would not be a good idea for that particular part.

 

[StrangerDanger]

Interesting mod cuts. Shoot it a bunch before you rely on it. What works playing with in the garage often times has failure points that don’t show themselves until you’re on the live range. 
 

Birddog - If the spring wasn’t to the farthest extent to the rear it can roll over when firing. Furthermore, If the spring is canted at all where it presses against the receiver, it can roll. 
 

With dental picks or a smudge stick, you can actually install the spring with the lever in place. It’s kind of a PITA and might be harder than just knocking the pin out. Sometimes you don’t have punched handy though. 

[NoTycoon]

5 hours ago, Evolution said:

Curious, why have you been removing and installing the latch many times? Seems to me that, that in itself would not be a good idea for that particular part.

I have taken mine apart many times to 1) gradually take off material to get an easier load pressure, 2) change to a larger release button, and 3) open up the loading port for faster loading.  I have done many mods to my gun because I use it for 3-gun competition.  Therefore, it gets fired a lot and the mods have held up.

[Birdog19]

6 hours ago, Evolution said:

Curious, why have you been removing and installing the latch many times? Seems to me that, that in itself would not be a good idea for that particular part.

Over the years I've pulled it out to polish it, modify it, bend it and recently replace it after it broke.  All this was in an effort to ease the mag tube loading process as this original post discusses.  And, Tycoon above.

While eating Tacos on Tuesday on cinco de Mayo with no Corona, I decided to read through Benelliwerk's awesome manual:  Anatomy of the Benelli M4.  I finally got to the pages that talks in great detail the interactions of the carrier control button, cartridge drop lever (shell drop button), cartridge latch (shell stop) and the shell carrier lift.  Of course it shows the proper position of the spring on the cartridge latch.  I grabbed my M4, unloaded all the 00 Buck and took a look.  Sure enough I had installed the spring about half way between the latch pivot pin and the very end (or the back) where it interacts with the cartridge drop lever.

I was almost able to reposition the spring without removing the latch but I surrendered to the PITA procedure and removed the latch completely to reinstall the spring.  Once I got everything back in their proper position, I was able to hold the latch with my left hand and re-install the GG&G bolt release pad with my right hand.  This held everything together while I got the roll pin started in the receiver and inserted a guide pin (finishing nail) through the opposing pin hole to keep things lined-up.  Having a gun vise definitely helped.

Moral of the storey -- don't be an idiot. 

Lesson of the story -- using your aftermarket bolt release pad, if you have one, during the process gives you an extra hand while getting the roll pin started.

[Vertigofirearms]

Bumping this thread as I was informed by Stranger Danger that people have been trying to modify the shell latch.

I was working on converting a ethos shell latch to be backwards compatible with the older receivers until I came across a few threads about this. The one that sticks out to me is from bsp212 on the Briley loading port thread.

On 2/9/2020 at 5:04 PM, bsp212 said:

Benelli will tell you the same regarding the 20g vs 12g shell latch for the M2. My guess is the only way to find out is to experiment. The spring and pin locations should be the same so it may be worth a try. 

Coincidentally, I had ordered the the Rob Roberts modified 20 gauge shell latch before I saw this thread. So I will have 2 different 20 gauge shell latches to see.

Late into my research, I discovered Briley manufactures a two piece milled shell latch, but it requires enlarging the receiver hole.

 

 

[Vertigofirearms]

I can confirm M2 20 gauge is shell latch is the same 12 gauge shell latch.

[Vertigofirearms]

M2 20 gauge is the second from top with Rob Robert's longer tab.

[ClackClackBAM]

Since we're on the subject, does anyone have an M4 shell stop lever laying around? 

[Vertigofirearms]

M4 shell stop is the same as the regular autoloaders with the round button.

[Vertigofirearms]

Two piece latch currently on the gun. Loads very smoothly, but unlocking the bolt will require a positive force.