Benelli M4 SBS Entry model owners. Worth it?

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I have a 11715 model M4 with the extended magazine tube and adjustable stock. It’s my go to / favorite home defense weapon.

Have a friend looking to sell a Benelli M4 14” Entry SBS and I’m hoping to get current owners’ opinions. I’m not sure it gives me much benefit for the price. That four inches doesn’t seem to do a lot vs the NFA hassles that would go along with it.

Current owners: Would you buy one again? Is it more of a help to home defense / CQB than I’m seeing initially?

[rubicon20032003]

Thats what a regular m4 should have been a entry to start with.I don’t even fire my regular m4s now .And just picked up another entry.

Edited April 27, 2021 by rubicon20032003

[Gmcrigger2007]

I would love to get an Entry M4, but only law enforcement are allowed to have it in this communists state. 

[alpha 33]

2 hours ago, SnidelyWhiplash said:

I have a 11715 model M4 with the extended magazine tube and adjustable stock. It’s my go to / favorite home defense weapon.

Have a friend looking to sell a Benelli M4 14” Entry SBS and I’m hoping to get current owners’ opinions. I’m not sure it gives me much benefit for the price. That four inches doesn’t seem to do a lot vs the NFA hassles that would go along with it.

Current owners: Would you buy one again? Is it more of a help to home defense / CQB than I’m seeing initially?

Frankly speaking,  the average homeowner confronting a 2AM break in, half asleep and in a defensive posture, won't know the difference between 14" or 18", nor would it matter.  One is no more or less effective than the other at 2AM.  For the "grunt or jarhead" going door to door in an offensive posture, yeah the 14" is a plus.

Then there is the NFA issue. Once you have registered your once 18" barreled M4 to a 14" barreled M4,  it will forever be an NFA item. Simply put, you can't just swap the barrel back to 18" and hope to sell it to the local gun shop or gunbroker. It will have to go to a willing FFL class 2 or 3 sot.

Having a 14" is mostly a status symbol for most of us, and yes,  I have a small NFA stamp collection, and no, I probably would not go that route again.

My 2 cents.........................

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I appreciate you guys taking the time to post and offer additional insights. I’m kinda leaning towards buying but I’m still nervous about the NFA aspects. I guess there’s worse things than having a backup Benelli M4 given today’s political climate.

[SnidelyWhiplash]

3 hours ago, rubicon20032003 said:

Thats what a regular m4 should have been a entry to start with.I don’t even fire my regular m4s now .And just picked up another entry.

Are you running an optic on yours, by chance?

[rubicon20032003]

1 hour ago, SnidelyWhiplash said:

Are you running an optic on yours, by chance?

Yes these will be my setup I have on both 

Edited April 27, 2021 by rubicon20032003

[Sukhoi_fan]

Another thing to consider is that with an NFA item you consent to Uncle Fudd showing up at your crib 24/7/365 demanding to take a look at your stuff.

[Evolution]

16 minutes ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

Another thing to consider is that with an NFA item you consent to Uncle Fudd showing up at your crib 24/7/365 demanding to take a look at your stuff.

So in a broad sense you're giving up your 4th amendment rights. No thank you.

[SnidelyWhiplash]

21 minutes ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

Another thing to consider is that with an NFA item you consent to Uncle Fudd showing up at your crib 24/7/365 demanding to take a look at your stuff.

I’m not a fan of the government but I don’t think that’s true. Where did you get this information?

[alpha 33]

1 hour ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

Another thing to consider is that with an NFA item you consent to Uncle Fudd showing up at your crib 24/7/365 demanding to take a look at your stuff.

Yes,  If I recall correctly, that little tid bit of freedom lost is mentioned on the "SBR/SBS" application form itself. 

[rubicon20032003]

1 minute ago, alpha 33 said:

Yes,  If I recall correctly, that little tid bit of freedom lost is mentioned on the "SBR/SBS" application form itself. 

Never seen that info on all the forms I’ve did .We’re you see that at?

[No. 6]

Yes, and I would do it again.  11722 model.

[alpha 33]

49 minutes ago, rubicon20032003 said:

Never seen that info on all the forms I’ve did .We’re you see that at?

Maybe not, it's been a long time since my last stamp, but I still believe it to be true. 

[swOHmatt]

The misinformation with title 2 firearms never ceases to amaze me.

It is only a short barreled shotgun when it has a short barrel.  Put an 18 on it and it is not a short barreled shotgun.  Take it anywhere a shotgun is legal, even sell it with the 18 if you like.  NFA would like to know it’s been “converted” back to a title 1, but that isn’t even necessary.  Unlike machine guns and NFA’s “once a machine gun always a machine gun” position, an SBS or SBR is only a title 2 when configured as a title 2.

You do not give up any rights.  .gov can’t come into your home anytime they wish.  Still America folks, probable cause and a warrant is necessary to enter your home.

Edited April 28, 2021 by swOHmatt
Add pic

[JTs M4]

51 minutes ago, swOHmatt said:

The misinformation with title 2 firearms never ceases to amaze me.

It is only a short barreled shotgun when it has a short barrel.  Put an 18 on it and it is not a short barreled shotgun.  Take it anywhere a shotgun is legal, even sell it with the 18 if you like.  NFA would like to know it’s been “converted” back to a title 1, but that isn’t even necessary.  Unlike machine guns and NFA’s “once a machine gun always a machine gun” position, an SBS or SBR is only a title 2 when configured as a title 2.

You do not give up any rights.  .gov can’t come into your home anytime they wish.  Still America folks, probable cause and a warrant is necessary to enter your home.

So If you bought the short entry barrel and got a stamp you could switch the barrels back and forth anytime you choose ? when you use the entry barrel what do you use as the mag tube ? do you just take the extension off ??  

Edited April 28, 2021 by JTs M4

[Sukhoi_fan]

5 hours ago, SnidelyWhiplash said:

I’m not a fan of the government but I don’t think that’s true. Where did you get this information?

Many years ago I hung out with a several Class 3 dealers, I recall them telling me that (we used to have a lot of local Class 3 dealers locally). They could've been referring only to their own license but the impression I got was if one has a tax stamp for full auto they're very interested in talking to you if a full auto is used locally in a crime, e.g. one owns a FA AK and a FA AK was used in an incident in the area, they would be very interested in talking to you about your AK. The impression they gave me was they would not be wanting to do a search of your home, it'd be more of a knock and talk, as in a "Show us the item and your tax stamp" situation. Still, I would not want to be on their radar with a tax stamp, I don't care what anyone says. IF anyone ever starts talking about having or wanting FA (or any other NFA item) I always ask: "You got a tax stamp for that/you plan on getting a tax stamp to acquire that?" If they answer in the negative I tell them to get the hell away from me with their criminal intent. The folks on the NFA registry are the first ones they will be coming to visit when it's time to step up their plans. If something is 'registered' then it's not yours - register comes from Latin regis which means "of the king."

[swOHmatt]

7 hours ago, JTs M4 said:

So If you bought the short entry barrel and got a stamp you could switch the barrels back and forth anytime you choose ? when you use the entry barrel what do you use as the mag tube ? do you just take the extension off ??  

Switch back and forth as you wish.  If an SBS is illegal in a state where you wish to take the shotgun, then put an 18 on it.  I’ve never thought to go back to an 18 on mine, but if I did, I figured I’d just put a +2 extension on.

[swOHmatt]

5 hours ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

Many years ago I hung out with a several Class 3 dealers, I recall them telling me that (we used to have a lot of local Class 3 dealers locally). They could've been referring only to their own license but the impression I got was if one has a tax stamp for full auto they're very interested in talking to you if a full auto is used locally in a crime, e.g. one owns a FA AK and a FA AK was used in an incident in the area, they would be very interested in talking to you about your AK. The impression they gave me was they would not be wanting to do a search of your home, it'd be more of a knock and talk, as in a "Show us the item and your tax stamp" situation. Still, I would not want to be on their radar with a tax stamp, I don't care what anyone says. IF anyone ever starts talking about having or wanting FA (or any other NFA item) I always ask: "You got a tax stamp for that/you plan on getting a tax stamp to acquire that?" If they answer in the negative I tell them to get the hell away from me with their criminal intent. The folks on the NFA registry are the first ones they will be coming to visit when it's time to step up their plans. If something is 'registered' then it's not yours - register comes from Latin regis which means "of the king."

ATF has the right to audit any dealer’s records to confirm they are correctly processing the paperwork and keeping the records required.  I had a class 3 FFL some 20 years ago.  While they can show up at your place of business unannounced for that audit, they always made an appointment.  They are not free to wander the premises, they’d need probable cause and a warrant to root through your property. Bad record keeping could be a cause for that warrant.  They will see a gun in the bound book and will ask you to provide it to them, confirm it matches the description on the form 4, and then ask for the next. They had a policy of auditing class 3 dealers on an annual basis.  But this process, although more often then “regular” dealers, is the same for both.

 

When I sold my last title 2 and noted its disposal in my bound book I did not renew my Special Occupational Tax.  Then ATF came for their annual audit they stated I had not renewed my SOT.  I indicated I no longer had title 2s on the books and that was the end of that.  I kept my “standard” FFL for a few more years and then closed that as well and shipped the bound book off to the FFL out of business address.

As an individual or non-licensee who happens to own a title 2 firearm, your rights are the same as any other gun owning individual. Probable cause is required to search your home.

Edited April 28, 2021 by swOHmatt

[alpha 33]

9 hours ago, swOHmatt said:

The misinformation with title 2 firearms never ceases to amaze me.

It is only a short barreled shotgun when it has a short barrel.  Put an 18 on it and it is not a short barreled shotgun.  Take it anywhere a shotgun is legal, even sell it with the 18 if you like.  NFA would like to know it’s been “converted” back to a title 1, but that isn’t even necessary.  Unlike machine guns and NFA’s “once a machine gun always a machine gun” position, an SBS or SBR is only a title 2 when configured as a title 2.

You do not give up any rights.  .gov can’t come into your home anytime they wish.  Still America folks, probable cause and a warrant is necessary to enter your home.

I agree, you are free to bounce back and forth 14 to 18 to 14 and back. My point is that once registered as an SBS, the receiver will always be an SBS. All NFA rules,regulation and laws will forever follow that receiver.  You cannot put the 18 back on and sell the weapon  without a form 1 NFA tax stamp transfer.

[swOHmatt]

1 hour ago, alpha 33 said:

I agree, you are free to bounce back and forth 14 to 18 to 14 and back. My point is that once registered as an SBS, the receiver will always be an SBS. All NFA rules,regulation and laws will forever follow that receiver.  You cannot put the 18 back on and sell the weapon  without a form 1 NFA tax stamp transfer.

Your statement “You cannot put the 18 back on and sell the weapon” is incorrect.  “Once a machine gun always a machine gun” is correct.  That is not true with short barreled rifles or shotguns.  How can it be a short barreled shotgun if it doesn’t have a short barrel?  It is what it is as it is configured at that moment.

A form 1 is the form used to make and register a title 2 firearm.  A form 4 is the form to transfer a title 2 from one individual or organization to another.  I make this statement not to be a dick, but to correct an inaccurate statement for those who may be interested in title 2 firearms.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Deregistering-a-SBR-lower/17-522768/

Edited April 28, 2021 by swOHmatt

[alpha 33]

4 hours ago, swOHmatt said:

Your statement “You cannot put the 18 back on and sell the weapon” is incorrect.  “Once a machine gun always a machine gun” is correct.  That is not true with short barreled rifles or shotguns.  How can it be a short barreled shotgun if it doesn’t have a short barrel?  It is what it is as it is configured at that moment.

A form 1 is the form used to make and register a title 2 firearm.  A form 4 is the form to transfer a title 2 from one individual or organization to another.  I make this statement not to be a dick, but to correct an inaccurate statement for those who may be interested in title 2 firearms.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Deregistering-a-SBR-lower/17-522768/

OK....form 1, form 2, form 52, those numbers are irrelevant. Fact of the matter is, it's the receiver that's registered not the barrel.

Try out your theory. Swap your 14" barrel back to 18", take it to a gun shop and offer to sell it to them. Agree on a price, then tell them, "oh by the way  it's a registered SBS". I'm fairly certain they will kindly change their mind.

I could be mistaken but I think not.

[swOHmatt]

1 hour ago, alpha 33 said:

 

Try out your theory. Swap your 14" barrel back to 18", take it to a gun shop and offer to sell it to them. Agree on a price, then tell them, "oh by the way  it's a registered SBS". I'm fairly certain they will kindly change their mind.

This would only prove the ignorance of the gun shop that may be interested in buying that receiver.  It would not prove that any laws were broken.

Read the link I provided above and learn.  That thread relates to the situation you are arguing.  Many who responded are current class 3 licenses.  None has put forward the argument you are making.

[rubicon20032003]

Can’t you just send a let to atf to remove from registry.

[swOHmatt]

4 hours ago, rubicon20032003 said:

Can’t you just send a let to atf to remove from registry.

Yes.  Although not necessary, if you’re selling it to another, it may not be a bad idea.  ATF would only need notice if that buyer planned to SBS that serial number.

The serial number is never removed from the registry, it’s just noted as no longer a title 2.