10Gauge

Ran across this info today and thought it might be of use to some of you guys patterning your turkey loads this season and planning to take shots out to 50 yards......personally I don't advocate shots beyond 35yards but I hear guys talk about these 55-60 yard turkey kills and figured they might need some help in the ammo department!!! What I found interesting was the author used factory "xtra-full" or "turkey chokes" and got some rather outstanding results with them and a variety of off the shelf turkey loads. Keep in mind this is a test of "TURKEY LOADS" not various chokes or different shotguns and was done in 2007 (relatively up to date); http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/turkey_loads.htm

Turk, first things first......how low are you shooting? You have a POA (Point of Aim) and the bulk of your pattern is found in your POI (Point of Impact).....sometimes this is best tested at a short distance first, 10 yards for example. have you changed stock shims to compensate for the low POI? For most shotgunners the stock is your "rear sight".....and the mid bead is of little concern. however, if you want to use the mid bead you will still need to adjust the stock so when you mount the gun (stock is up to your cheek) the front site and mid bead will align as stated below.... when you have the gun mounted and you look down the barrel (rib) what do you see? If the mid bead and front site (fiber optic) are in line with each other (or mid bead hides part of the front site) you may be shooting low. If you see a figure 8....mid bead below front site (forms an "8") you might be slightly high. Most figure "8" setups will shoot a bit high 80/20 (meaning 80% of the pattern is above POA). A turkey gun should be set up somewhere in between....my POA is the base of the turkey neck where the feathers meet that ugly head and I want my POI to be close to the same or slightly higher. If your POI is too high, you will need to lower your stock. If too low, raise it. If too much to the right, you need cast on (assuming you are a righty). If too much to the left, you need cast off.

Ran across this thread on another forum where a fellow Benelli SuperNova owner patterned his gun with a Carlson & Primo's Jelly Head using a variety of loads. Winchester Xtended Range, Winchester XX and Remington Hevi-Shot were in the mix.....good stuff for you guys looking for a starting point to pattern your turkey guns! http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2004934

i'm familar with Nitro and their work. It's been a few years, but i purchased the first 10ga turkey choke Rhino ever made for a Browning (i gave RHINO a factory Browning turkey choke to use as a pattern for their first 10ga tube)!!! In fact, they made two chokes for me back then (mid 90's) the second was a waterfowl choke. Since i was handloading for the "mighty 10" back then i worked up a lot of similar loads as the boys at Nitro but primarily for my Rhino tubed Browning Gold 10ga!!! These loads were not NEW or UNIQUE, most had been around almost as long as the 3-1/2" 10 gauge had been killing game (decades). Nitro took the concept of handloads for increased perfomance "commercial" and have created a good business doing this today. Ballistic Products, Inc has published tons of data on high performance loads for the average "reloader" since 1974 and they offer the most extensive line of specialty reloading components i have ever found. BPI offers the 12ga 3-1/2" reloader a lot of data/info and specialty components in addition to their wealth of 10ga knowledge. i'd go so far as to say BPI has forgotten more about loading, patterns and components than some in the industry will ever know. Once you get bitten by the reloading bug there is no cure....i started in 1978 (teenager) reloading trap loads with my buddies in his dad's detached garage/workshop....then i moved into reloading for my .22-250 in the early 80's.....in the early 90's i added a 16 ga loader to feed my upland game fetish.....and added a 10 ga loader when i got serious about turkey & waterfowl hunting. Today, i don't mess around with 12 or 20 ga target loads....factory stuff is cheap enough and better than it used to be. i'm still loading for the "SweetSixteen" and "MightyTen" today and enjoy every minute....especially testing new loads at the pattern board!

mudhen is right XR's are high density or heavier than lead but NOT as dense as Hevi-Shot 13 for example. Not ALL HD shot is created equal....lead is around 10-11g/cc density....std Hevi-Shot (Remington) is supposed to be 11-12g/cc and Environmetal's Hevi-Shot 13 is 13g/cc. The Winchester XR actually falls between lead and the std Hevi-Shot around 11.10-11.89 from what I can find published on this product. Remington changed their Hevi-Shot a couple of years ago by lowering their density in some waterfowl loads (9-10g/cc) and it isn't as good a lead but it's better than steel! My Kick's is a .660" and like mud say's it shoots #6 copper plated lead better than anything i've tested....it shoots 3" better than 3-1/2", too! This is my favorite combo in the SBE & might be in my SuperNova (have yet to test it). Over 50 years ago a couple of guys did some research and found 2-3/4" shells patterned better in 3" chambered guns.....and I've seen the same in my 3-1/2" guns, 3" shells pattern better than 3-1/2" in my testing. I'd test those Win XR's in the Kick's .655" tube but i agree with mud you may get better performance with a more open choke.....something like .665" or even a .670" with #5's and "higher density" shot (has been my experience anyway). Try some good ole "inexpensive" Federal Turkey loads in 3" & 3-1/2" #6 shot, too and you might be surprised how these will perform in the Kick's .655" tube! Mud, I wish we lived closer it would be fun getting together and comparing notes it looks as if we both have covered similar ground over the years with respect to patterning. The two gentlemen I mentioned above who tested patterns over 50 years ago put their work in print. If you have never read their work I recommend it....it's highly technical because it was "engineering" research back in the day....look for "The MYSTERIES OF SHOTGUN PATTERNS" by George G. Oberfell & Charles E. Thompson. The stuff they uncovered over a half century ago is still useful today and unfortunately their work is so obscure today that many of us are "repeating history" unnecessarily!

Like many of you, i own both the SBE2 & SuperNova and in my opinion more attention to detail is paid to the SBE2 (and SBE's). By this I mean the internal trigger mechanism in the SBE2 is superior to the SuperNova, the machining and fit on my SBE2 is better as well. Crio treating the barrel adds to the cost of the SBE2, too. Finally, i'm sure the barrel and action of the SBE2 adds to the machining cost as opposed to the molded "plastic" reciever in the SuperNova. Personally, I think "Wakeman" is a boob and he makes a lot of comments about things he has little or no experience with regarding both firearms and hunting. Yes, he has a right to his opinions and we are intitled to challenge him. My very first Benelli purchase was a sporting clays gun and i dumped that gun so fast because it was killing me with respect to recoil....i didn't discount the value of the Benelli system based on that experience alone. There are softer shooting guns for lots of clay bird shooting and this is why i still own a Beretta 390! As far as "wakeman's" comments on the A5, i own several of these guns as well and enjoy shooting them. however, the recoil can be brutal if the recoil rings are not setup to the specific load your shooting. Combine that with the entire 28" or 30" barrel moving back and forth each time you pull the trigger and it is obvious accuracy in the A5 is not as good as a fixed barrel gun! Finally, A5's have a lot of parts compared to "modern" semi-auto's and this means they need more care and maintenance to keep them operating properly. As i said, i love my humpbacks but to compare an A5 with a SBE or SBE2 is like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Honda....just my opinion, mr. whackman!

http://www.chuckhawks.com/benelli_black_eagle_take.htm I guess the gang over at "chuck hawks DOT com" don't care for Benelli Inertia guns and seem to think the Franchi I-12 is as good as a SBE at 1/2 the price.......i feel so screwed!

here's why the boys at GobblerGuns charge $150 to pattern your gun; http://www.luckyweasel.com/ a computerized patterning program that counts the pellets for you and gives you data you can't determine for yourself.......like "True Turkey Factor", give me a break!!!! how will we ever be able to pattern a shotgun without a Lucky Weasel of our own??? seriously, this system isn't doing anything you can't do yourself....you just need to be able to count pellets!

good info, quake and here is the page everyone should read; http://www.gobblerguns.com/pageshr/luckweasel.html#picts the data these guys mention is what every patterning session should include.......i would add temperature and humidity because these effect pattern performance as well. in the past i've used the 10-20-30" circle method but i also use a "grid" and "pie piece" methods and look at my patterns outside the "turkey" head & neck region. My goal is not just how many pellets are placed in these areas but how uniform my pattern is "few holes" in the pattern is what i feel is equally important. The magic "300" pellet reference these guys talk about is why i continue to use lead for turkey loads and not the high density stuff....lead gives you more pellets per ounce than ANY of the "new" stuff on the market and its much cheaper to shoot so you can pattern, pattern and pattern some more! I wonder what these guys are smoking by charging $150 to pattern a shotgun and provide "data".....this is not rocket science, the data is right under your nose and you can shoot a lot of ammo and buy a couple of choke tubes for that kinda coin! Besides, I don't want somebody else having all the fun and I pay them to do it! again, thanks for the info quake it is a good site!

dan, SBE & SBE2 chokes are different.....MC (****** Choke) vs. Crio+ (CrioPlus). I own both but I don't own a M2....However, I was thinking the M2 was using the Crio+ system, too?!?! Either way, your choke tubes will be marked MC or Crio+, this is the best way to determine what you have and buy the right choke tube! Right now I have a Beretta 390, Beretta 686, Beretta 687, Benelli SuperNova, SBE, M1Super90 and Nova that are all 12 ga and they ALL use the same Beretta/Benelli MC system, my SBE2 is the only one that is different and uses the Crio+.

T2, Chokes marked Beretta/Benelli or Ber/Ben are typically MC style or "Mobil Chokes" and work in SBE's, M1S90's, Nova's but NOT in the newer SBE2 gun. The SBE2 has Crio+ chokes (CrioPlus) and these are the same choke as the Beretta Optima+ (OptimaPlus). The Crio+ choke is longer than the MC style. Before you send the Kick's back I'd shoot it with a couple of loads.....I shoot the Kick's GT in my SBE and it shoots a great pattern with Winchester XX Magnums or Federal Turkey Loads (#5 or #6...6's are best in my gun). stmike makes a valid point regarding #6 Pheasant loads....these are typically copper plated shotshells and tend to shoot nearly as well as turkey loads....and pheasant loads are much cheaper! The main difference, aside from finding a 3-1/2" pheasant load, is most pheasant loads are not buffered where turkey loads are. buffering helps to improve pattern performance at distances beyond 25 yards by preventing pellet deformation in tighter turkey chokes and for this reason most ammo makers use "buffered shot" in Turkey loads!

way to go paul! keep in mind it's a good idea to measure your choke tubes with an indicator....dial calipers work to some extend but watch those notches in the end of the tubes. when it comes to aftermarket tubes I've seen them market "Full" but the actually measured "modified"! Below is a chart from Briley's website that I keep on hand as a reference when measuring choke tubes; 12 ga. 20 ga. .410 bore .000" .000" .000" = Cylinder © ----- .003" .003" = Lite Skeet (LS) .005" .005" .005" = Skeet (S) ----- .007" .007" = Imp Skt (IS) .010" .009" .008" = Imp Cyl (IC) .015" .012" .010" = Lite Modified (LM) .020" .015" .012" = Modified (M) .025" .018" .014" = Imp Mod (IM) .030" .021" .016" = Lite Full (LF) .035" .024" .018" = Full (F) .040" .027" .020" = Xtra-Full (XF) For 10 & 16 ga use the 12 ga column, for 28ga use the 20 ga column. If your barrel is .725" then a "full" choke for this barrel should be .690".....but you'll more than likely find aftermarket tubes for benelli's (mobil chokes) that actually measure .695", at least this has been my experience!

your warped, tuck!

NK, I'd never use the word "ALL" when talking chokes & steel shot! this was taken from Carlson's website..... "when shooting steel shot ALWAYS shoot a more open choke than you would with lead because steel patterns are tighter, at the same distance, than lead shot. Use the following rule: Cylinder Lead = Improved Cylinder Steel Improved Cylinder Lead = Modified Cylinder Steel Modified Lead = Full Steel CARLSON'S Extended Steel Shot Choke Tubes and Sporting Clays Choke Tubes pattern better with steel shot and throw 10-15% denser patterns than flush mount choke tubes. NEVER shoot BBB, T, or F steel shot through ANY flush mount choke tighter than Modified. BB and smaller size steel shot may be used through full choke constrictions. Hevi-Shot, Bismuth Shot, and Tungsten Polymer may be used in all lead shot choke tubes, Tungsten Iron shot should be treated the same as steel shot. CARLSON'S Turkey Choke Tubes have tighter constrictions than standard choke tubes and steel shot should NOT be used with ANY turkey choke. Hevi-Shot, Lead Shot, Copper Shot, Nickel Shot, Bismuth Shot, and Tungsten Polymer Shot can all be shot through CARLSON'S Turkey Choke Tubes. We have had the best pattern results with #5 and #6 shot sizes; #4 shot generally patterns better with a more open turkey choke diameter." here is the link; http://www.choketube.com/patterning.html

kevin, during my sporting clays tournament "days" I used acetone on my bores....it works very fast and aggressively removes wad fouling from the barrels & choke tubes! wad fouling was always worst in the choke tube and around the forcing cone area (just in front of chamber) but sometimes the fouling could be an issue in the barrel as well. even on chrome bores....less of an issue on chrome but still possible. I buy acetone at the hardware store in quart or gallon containers....a little goes a long way! if you have a lot of wad fouling you can see it when it disolves...it is usually a "gooey black" residue and sometimes soaking choke tubes in the acetone is the best way to disolve the plastic. Keep in mind this build up is typically the result of shooting several hundred rounds between cleanings, you might not see the residue if you are shooting 1 or 2 shots before cleaning?!?! Make sure any cleaning method you use while patterning leaves the bore dry....you don't want any lubricant in the barrel between shots....kinda like cleaning a muzzlloader between shots, i use a 12 ga jag and patches just like I do my muzzlloaders....KleenBore makes both 12 & 20 shotgun jags for this type of cleaning. disclaimer......don't know if acetone is safe for a camo finishes but it works great on a "black or blue" barrels, just make sure you remove the barrel before cleaning and wash your hands before touching any plastic or wood finishes!!!

slayer, use a heat gun (not blow dryer) but be very careful not to melt the camo clad....practice on something else if you need to....i've never done the nova but i've done other items that had uneven or slotted surfaces and the heat gun worked best for me! it won't look as good a the "factory" dip but if the dux & turkeys can tell you got bigger problems!

i hear ya........

USAF, here's the remington link....says the 1100 G3 "lefty" is available in both 12 & 20....read slowly http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_1100/model_1100_G3.asp

i have a couple of SBE's and this is the first I've heard of this problem....i don't shoot as much 3-1/2" with my guns as you seem to but i would expect the gun to shoot hundreds of thousands of rounds without a "weld" failure! The barrel lugs should be welded not soldered..........do you have any idea what year this gun was produced??? You say you had it about 4 years, did you buy it new?

trav, congratulations! However, after asking everyones opinion before your purchase, and so many suggested you buy a different gun for your prefered sports (clays & doves) don't complain about your new SBE2 when it fails to fire those light dove loads next September or light target loads when shooting clay birds!!! read the manual and follow the break-in proceedure.......good luck!

my "factory" benelli mag extension tubes and pistol grip stocks are all marked "Made in the USA"...... laser etched in fact!

tuck, does the benelli SBE2 or SuperNova owners manual explain this? Since both of my "newer" guns were purchased used (I didn't get an owners manual) i have not been able to confirm benelli put this info out to the public?!?! it is a question that has appeared frequently on this forum......

milt, i'd just make sure that any oversized bolt is made of a material that keeps it's weight close to the factory benelli bolt or is machined in a way that keeps the weight close...I say this because too heavy a bolt might cause issues with light 20 gauge loads cycling and a bolt that is too light might be an issue when shooting heavier 3" magnum loads! good luck

cali, what jaeger said.........lead is soft and more than likely no damage was done to the muzzle end of your M4! However, i'd take the receiver/bolt apart and take a look at these parts/components.....when the gun cycled did it sound normal? Or did you hear any metalic "pings" when the bolt came back....if so check the rear of the receiver (inside) to make sure nothing cracked. My educated guess is you are okay but its a good idea to take a close look so you don't have any future problems....i think your fine and the higher pressure your gun saw was more akin to shooting 150 magnum loads or accelerated "break-in"! with respect to 000 buck it can be shot from a factory full choke but I think it will pattern better in a modified or imp modified even out beyond 40 yards! How large are those 100yd steel targets, anyway?

GBS, i've loaded some 2-7/8" shells for the 10ga (sxs) that were 1-1/4oz "lead" loads....these were tested on clay birds and at one time I considered shooting doves with this load, but felt it was too unfair on the little critters! my lightest 3-1/2" shell is a 1-3/8oz "lead" load that i call my "target" load and it is a 1250 fps easy shooting load! I've shot sporting clays with this load for "kicks"......you can go as light as 1-1/4 oz but I'm not sure my Browning will cycle something this light? My heaviest, magnum or maximum 3-1/2" TURKEY load is a 2-1/2oz nickle or copper plated "lead" load (buffered, too!).....2-1/2oz of #6 is a bunch of pellets and throws a wicked pattern!